Bronx Zoo Elephant Not a Person Court Rules

Nedsk said:
No I have a right to life but can forfeit that right based on my behavior. You are adding absolute I never said anything about absolute rights. Don't confuse yourself.
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I am not confused. The UN declaration talks about absolute, qualified and limited rights, but if that's too confusing for you, I'll leave it unless it becomes relevant.
 
Caroljeen said:
Are you a Christian? If you are, can you show me in the Bible where we have a right to life?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
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I was leading up to this question.
 
Temujin said:
Let me state it clearly. I have the right to free health care. Do you have that right? If so, are you permitted to exercise it by your government? If not, why has God given me that right and not you?

I also have the right to six weeks paid holiday every year, or I did when I was working. Do you have that right? If not, why has God given it to me and not you?

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture. Your view that all human beings have rights given by God is unsustainable, since I have rights that you don't. I see three possibilities:
1. God gave British people rights he denied to Americans.
2. Your government is preventing you from exercising some of your God-given rights.
3. At least some rights are granted by governments, not by God.

Which of these do you choose?
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Nedsk said:
What is it with you people? The government doesnt give us our rights. Why would you even want that??? It's astounding

I have free will but my life's not my own? You're talking in circles.
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Try asking the question I posed above. I answer your question. You answer mine.

It seems to me that you think that the rights you have as an American, and think that you should have, are "God-given". The rights that I have as a Brit, that you think you should not have are not God-given. Perhaps you don't even think that they are rights at all. Plus the rights you have that other Americans don't think you should have, such as the right to buy machine guns, are God-given, while the rights that they have that you don't think they should have, such as access to abortion, are not God-given and are not rights at all.

If this is an accurate summing of your position (I'm guessing as you avoided answering my post) then you think exactly like the writers of the D o I. The rights they want come from God. No other rights are wanted or needed. This applies to every human on earth. This is God's will. And you know exactly what God's will is, because strangely it is exactly the same as yours.
 
Caroljeen said:
The government doesn't own us but it does impose upon us it's rule. We have the Bill of Rights that gives us certain rights as citizens, but there are always amendments and changes to them.

God gave you your life and it belongs to him. You have the free will to do what you want with it but then you have to give an account to God of how you lived your life. Your rights under God are limited as well. Once you become a Christian your life is not your own. You've been bought with a price...
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This is true, but through Christ and in Christ we have the inheritence of eternal life, and I think that is what is being implied.
But you are right to point out that right has been purchased with the blood of Jesus, our lives are not our own to do what we want.
 
Temujin said:
Read the thread. My last post answers this.
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Yeah, read the thread hence the question. Since you dont believe in God, and consider Him irrelevant to any argument, suddenly asking questions about God begs the question 'why?' Why would you be interested?
 
BMS said:
Yeah, read the thread hence the question. Since you dont believe in God, and consider Him irrelevant to any argument, suddenly asking questions about God begs the question 'why?' Why would you be interested?
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I am not interested in God. I am interested in the fallacious concept of God-given rights. It is the reaction of human beings to the concept of God that is interesting. God Himself is dull as ditch water, a two dimensional, badly written myth.
 
BMS said:
I took it to mean faith in Christ. Through faith in Christ we have eternal life
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The DOI doesn't necessarily mean the Christian Creator. I don't think we can be certain at all that they meant eternal life by the word, Life.
 
BMS said:
This is true, but through Christ and in Christ we have the inheritence of eternal life, and I think that is what is being implied.
But you are right to point out that right has been purchased with the blood of Jesus, our lives are not our own to do what we want.
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Why would they speak of eternal life in that document? Only believers have eternal life and ALL men (and women) are not believers. Women didn't even have the right to vote back then.

They wanted freedom to do with their lives what they wanted to do and not have the British government impose upon them restrictions. They used God to qualify their right for independence from Britain. But Paul in Romans 13: 1-3 doesn't seem to condone rebellion against the government.
So does God give us those rights in the DOI?
 
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Caroljeen said:
Why would they speak of eternal life in that document? Only believers have eternal life and ALL men (and women) are not believers. Women didn't even have the right to vote back then.

They wanted freedom to do with their lives what they wanted to do and not have the British government impose upon them restrictions. They used God to qualify their right for independence from Britain. But Paul in Romans 13: 1-3 doesn't seem to condone rebellion against the government.
So does God give us those rights in the DOI?
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I agree with what you say. I was only concerned with the Biblical testimony
 
Temujin said:
I am not interested in God. I am interested in the fallacious concept of God-given rights. It is the reaction of human beings to the concept of God that is interesting. God Himself is dull as ditch water, a two dimensional, badly written myth.
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Why would you be interested in the details of something iou dont believe in?
 
BMS said:
I agree with what you say. I was only concerned with the Biblical testimony
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Maybe there is scripture in the Bible to support the DOI's assertion about inalienable rights but I can't think of any.
I'm on your side of the abortion debate. The right/freedom to life that we take for granted in the US I think should be extended to the life in the womb also but when discussing it with atheistic Brits, it's a useless argument. Are you an American?
 
BMS said:
Why would you be interested in the details of something iou dont believe in?
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You don't get to dictate what I am interested in. I am interested in science fiction for example, which often touches on the theme of God. You should read Phillip Farmer's River World series.
 
Temujin said:
You don't get to dictate what I am interested in. I am interested in science fiction for example, which often touches on the theme of God. You should read Phillip Farmer's River World series.
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You said you didbt believe in God and then said you were about to ask questions about what God says and believes. If you dont believe in God then there can be no answers to your questions which are going to be important to you. Unless of course you have in your mind a particular type of god that you dont believe in
 
BMS said:
You said you didbt believe in God and then said you were about to ask questions about what God says and believes. If you dont believe in God then there can be no answers to your questions which are going to be important to you. Unless of course you have in your mind a particular type of god that you dont believe in
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I have in mind an interest in other people and what other people believe. Some other people believe in God, or so they say. Just because you have no interest in other people unless they think the same way you do, doesn't mean that all other people think the same way.
 
Temujin said:
I have in mind an interest in other people and what other people believe. Some other people believe in God, or so they say. Just because you have no interest in other people unless they think the same way you do, doesn't mean that all other people think the same way.
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Nope that doesnt ring true. When people tell you about God you mostly reply that you dont believe in God and that it is irrelevant
 
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