Can You Pray to Whoever You Want to?

[Nondenom40]

I disagree. Does death cut the branches off the Vine? No. They are still attached to Jesus, WHO IS WITHIN US, right?

Scripture also tells us that the prayers of the righteous availeth much. Scripture ALSO tells us in Heb 12 that we in the church are amongst "the SPIRITS of the righteous made perfect".

And in 1 Cor 12, we see that we are ALL, including those who have preceded us, in the mystical body of Christ" and we all need each other.

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.


15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.


21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be NO division in the body, but that its parts should have EQUAL CONCERN FOR EACH OTHER. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Does death cut the branches off the Vine? No. They are still attached to Jesus, WHO IS WITHIN US, right

Apples and oranges. We aren't talking about being 'cut off the vine'. Sheesh, why don't we be a little over dramatic huh? Cut off from the vine would imply loss of salvation. Who has been talking about that?

Scripture also tells us that the prayers of the righteous availeth much.

Another out of context verse. Tell us how that verse, in context refers to people who are dead, no longer living, not in this world. And not simply people to whom the letter is addressed to?

And in 1 Cor 12, we see that we are ALL, including those who have preceded us, in the mystical body of Christ" and we all need each other.

Show us where Paul said that refers to people not alive on this planet. Spiritual gifts are for the service in the church. Since he includes tongues, healing, teaching, faith...who in heaven needs those things? They are gifts of the Spirit to be used in the here and now, not once we are in heaven. When we leave this life, our race is over, we have crossed the finish line and our job is done. Catholics for some odd reason think God puts a hammer in your hand and says 'keep building youre not done'.

 

[balshan]

I found an old blog entry of mine from 2009 referencing a discussion HERE on the CARM Roman Catholic forum! In that old CARM thread, we were discussing the similarities and dissimilarities between Roman Catholics praying to deceased saints and the spiritualist practice of consulting spirits. Someone brought up the point that "[Roman] Catholics can only ask for the intercessory prayers of a saint." Back in 2009, I had always thought that as well... until I heard the magisterium's unofficial interpreter, Jimmy Akin, head apologist for Catholic Answers, say that isn't necessarily the case. I was able to restore the old MP3 clip from Catholic Answers. It's a short 3 minute clip that can be found here.

The CARM discussion from 2009 is probably long gone. Wow, the sands of time move quickly through the hourglass!

JS

The answer is a clear NO.

RCs claim their institution is apostolic which apostle prayed to an angel, to the dead Mary, the dead Stephen?

This practice proves the RCC is not apostolic and does not do what Jesus and the apostles did. This raises the question who are the following, they are not following Jesus clear instructions about prayer.

Luke 11

One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:

“‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread.
4 Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.”

Who did Jesus pray to

Luke 6:12

In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God.

 

[Stella1000]

This is probably the major reason I could never join a non Catholic Church. Having to put restrictions on the immortal nature of our souls so much that we have to reject the immortal presence of our ancestors in faith and family.

 

[balshan]

This is probably the major reason I could never join a non Catholic Church. Having to put restrictions on the immortal nature of our souls so much that we have to reject the immortal presence of our ancestors in faith and family.

Another false claim by an RC.

 

[pilgrim]

An assertion without proof.



1 Kings 8:38-39 appears in the Bible I have.
Better check yours.
In fact, this teaching appears again in 2 Chronicles 6:29-30.

That's what you did.

 

[balshan]

That's what you did.

1 Kings 8:28+

38 and when a prayer or plea is made by anyone among your people Israel—being aware of the afflictions of their own hearts, and spreading out their hands toward this temple— 39 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know every human heart),

2 Chron 6:29+

29 and when a prayer or plea is made by anyone among your people Israel—being aware of their afflictions and pains, and spreading out their hands toward this temple— 30 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive, and deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know the human heart),

No the poster backed up his claims, waiting for your back up.

 

[Nondenom40]

This is probably the major reason I could never join a non Catholic Church. Having to put restrictions on the immortal nature of our souls so much that we have to reject the immortal presence of our ancestors in faith and family.

I couldn't be catholic because of the liberty it takes on so many things the bible speaks against.

"Reject the immortal presence of our ancestors..."? What does that even mean? There is nothing in the bible that tells us we should embrace the 'immortal presence' of our ancestors. Do we know of people we love that are in the presence of God? Yes, are they in our presence? No, but we will be reunited one day. Thats the day we are waiting for.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Can You Pray to Whoever You Want to?​

ABSOLUTELY!!!! You can pray to St. Agatha, The "Blessed Virgin", Father God in Jesus' name, or a cement block. You've got free will to do as you please.

One of those is Biblical, and is related to Biblical promises. The other three are equally useless.

Simple as that.

 

[pilgrim]

1 Kings 8:28+

38 and when a prayer or plea is made by anyone among your people Israel—being aware of the afflictions of their own hearts, and spreading out their hands toward this temple— 39 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know every human heart),

2 Chron 6:29+

29 and when a prayer or plea is made by anyone among your people Israel—being aware of their afflictions and pains, and spreading out their hands toward this temple— 30 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive, and deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know the human heart),

No the poster backed up his claims, waiting for your back up.

He read what he wanted into Scripture. And he used Scripture that was written long before Jesus' Death and Resurrection which opened the gates of heaven to mankind. IOW, there was no one else in heaven to pray to at that time.

 

[Stella1000]

I couldn't be catholic because of the liberty it takes on so many things the bible speaks against.

"Reject the immortal presence of our ancestors..."? What does that even mean? There is nothing in the bible that tells us we should embrace the 'immortal presence' of our ancestors. Do we know of people we love that are in the presence of God? Yes, are they in our presence? No, but we will be reunited one day. Thats the day we are waiting for.

To the Jewish Apostles, it was a given that we are connected to our ancestors.

Beginning the Amidah by Connecting to Our Ancestors​

 

[Fred]

He read what he wanted into Scripture.

How?

And he used Scripture that was written long before Jesus' Death and Resurrection

To fully know the hearts of all is the same thing as being omniscient. That hasn't changed - never will. Furthermore, I also gave the link to Romans 8:26-27 in post 17.

 

[Tertiumquid]

I have been in CARM since 1-2000. What was that about being old?

Yes, it's amazing to think about that... 20+ years ago, we were participating here. I have some old threads from way back saved, and you were indeed there, as was BJ and a few others.

I realize Facebook, Twitter, and some other cyber-platforms are more popular now, but frankly, I don't understand the appeal. Long Facebook threads particularly are a nuisance to navigate through!

 

[balshan]

To the Jewish Apostles, it was a given that we are connected to our ancestors.

Beginning the Amidah by Connecting to Our Ancestors​

The apostles are not ancestors to the RCs at all. If they were then they would follow Jesus and the apostles which they do not. The RC leaders fail to meet the scriptural requirements for leaders, they do things the apostles would never do and they harm the sheep these are just some of the things that RCs are not connected to the apostles at all.

 

[balshan]

He read what he wanted into Scripture. And he used Scripture that was written long before Jesus' Death and Resurrection which opened the gates of heaven to mankind. IOW, there was no one else in heaven to pray to at that time.

OH no that is wrong, it is RCs who read what their false leaders tell them into scripture. Then they will change the meanings of words and they do not recognize the differences between figures of speech when it suits their false beliefs.

LOL he used the OT, so he is following what Jesus did, Jesus used the OT.

Oh so then when RCs use the transfiguration to make a case for praying to the dead, they are wrong because that was before Jesus' death and resurrection.

As I said it is you who has failed.

 

[balshan]

I couldn't be catholic because of the liberty it takes on so many things the bible speaks against.

"Reject the immortal presence of our ancestors..."? What does that even mean? There is nothing in the bible that tells us we should embrace the 'immortal presence' of our ancestors. Do we know of people we love that are in the presence of God? Yes, are they in our presence? No, but we will be reunited one day. Thats the day we are waiting for.

They just love to sound impressive whether it means anything or not. They will also cut and paste without understanding what it means. They link to pointless sites.

We know that this is rubbish about ancestors because there institution is not what it claims to be. I mean let us be honest to be connected to the apostles their leaders would need to pass the scriptural requirements for leaders and do what the apostles did.

The cannot name one apostle who prayed to the dead Mary, Stephen, Moses. They cannot produce one such prayer at all. So no connection at all.

 

[Nondenom40]

To the Jewish Apostles, it was a given that we are connected to our ancestors.

Beginning the Amidah by Connecting to Our Ancestors​

To the Jewish Apostles, it was a given that we are connected to our ancestors.

Great, lets see the verse.

Funny when the rich man asked Abraham to send someone back to warn his brothers about the place he was in he said no. Then pointed him to scripture. Thats how the bible relates us to those that are no longer here. We have fond memories of them but we don't contact them and they don't contact us. Why would you appeal to some jewish superstition and not scripture? Catholics will use anything and everything to legitimize their doctrines BUT scripture. Thought you people had a high view of scripture?

 

[Fred]

To the Jewish Apostles

...would have affirmed that God alone is the proper recipient of prayer.

Judaism 101: The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other. (The Nature of G-d)

The Nature of G-d - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Discusses fundamental Jewish beliefs about the nature of G-d and His relationship with the universe and with humanity.

www.jewfaq.org

 

[Bonnie]

I think circa 2000 or before i was probably doing this on beliefnet or something like that. There were some apologetic boards there too. Really don't remember how i stumbled across CARM. But no other boards are like this one. Others are like the wild west.

They must not be as well-moderated as this site.

 

[Atemi]

I disagree.

Yet every single example of a godly man or woman in prayer in all of Scripture records them praying to God alone.

But pilgrim says he has a better way.

So much for that cloud of witnesses you boast about. They left you an example that you refuse to follow.

 

[Atemi]

So do you believe that believers are cut off from the Body of Christ when they die?

What a lame and pathetic false dichotomy.

One can both believe that believers are NOT cut off from the Christ when they die....AND...believe prayers to the dead and seeking favors from them is wrong.