Excellent point.
Can You Pray to Whoever You Want to?
- Thread starter Tertiumquid
- Start date
Bonnie
Super Member
Apparently, some Catholics believe it is an either/or thing. But I am with you on this.
pilgrim
Well-known member
Good.
1 Cor 12: 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have EQUAL CONCERN FOR ONE ANOTHER. 26 If one part suffers, EVERY PART suffers with it; if one part is honored, EVERY PART rejoices with it.
I seem to remember a poster saying that the dead in Christ have no idea what is happening on earth and therefore do not pray for us.
Atemi
Well-known member
Why do you say "good" when you do not believe it is true?
Is that a Catholic thing?
No mention anywhere in there of anyone praying to the dead. Sorry.
It still remains a fact that every instance in Scripture of a godly person in prayer shows them praying to God alone.
The idea that you have a better idea than they is laughable.
Job 14:7
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down,
that it will sprout again,
and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth,
and the stock thereof die in the ground;
9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud,
and bring forth boughs like a plant.
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away:
yea, man giveth up the ghost,
and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea,
and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
..................
His (the Dead) sons come to honour,
and he (the Dead) knoweth it not;
and they (his Sons) are brought low,
but he (the Dead) perceiveth it not of them.
pilgrim said:
I seem to remember a poster saying that the dead in Christ have no idea what is happening on earth and therefore do not pray for us.
=============================end pilgrim post
ahh Pilgrim;
that was Solomon
Ecc.9:5
the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward;
for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy,
is now perished;
neither have they any more a portion for ever
in any thing that is done under the sun.
So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
But the other answering rebuked him,
saying,
Dost not thou fear God,
seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly;
for we receive the due reward of our deeds:
but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus,
Lord, remember me
when thou comest into thy kingdom.
pilgrim
Well-known member
I said good because we both believe that believers are not cut off from the Body of Christ when they die.
Yes, the Communion of Saints is a Catholic thing.
pilgrim
Well-known member
We are under a New Covenant now.
Bonnie
Super Member
It is in our church, as well. But that still doesn't mean it is okay to pray to saints dead in the Lord as one would to God, for help, succor, and even salvation. That is totally unbiblical. The Bible exhorts us to pray FOR each other, not TO each other.
pilgrim
Well-known member
When we pray TO saints we are asking them to pray TO God FOR us.
Bonnie said:
It is in our church, as well. But that still doesn't mean it is okay to pray to saints dead in the Lord as one would to God, for help, succor, and even salvation. That is totally unbiblical. The Bible exhorts us to pray FOR each other, not TO each other.
pilgrim said:
When we pray TO saints we are asking them to pray TO God FOR us.
===========================================
But they; nor these so called """Saints""" of the RCC
cannot hear you
they are dead, awaiting the resurrection
as all that have gone on before us are
except the ones we are told about
especially the 4 and Twenty Elders
the wave offering
Lev. ch. 23
so saith the Wise Man
Pilgrim;
all these demonically possessed so called """Saints""" of the RCC cannot hear you
but the devils demons can
It is in our church, as well. But that still doesn't mean it is okay to pray to saints dead in the Lord as one would to God, for help, succor, and even salvation. That is totally unbiblical. The Bible exhorts us to pray FOR each other, not TO each other.
pilgrim said:
When we pray TO saints we are asking them to pray TO God FOR us.
===========================================
But they; nor these so called """Saints""" of the RCC
cannot hear you
they are dead, awaiting the resurrection
as all that have gone on before us are
except the ones we are told about
especially the 4 and Twenty Elders
the wave offering
Lev. ch. 23
but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward;
for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy,
is now perished;
neither have they any more a portion for ever
in any thing that is done under the sun.
so saith the Wise Man
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in the grave, whither thou goest.
Pilgrim;
all these demonically possessed so called """Saints""" of the RCC cannot hear you
but the devils demons can
When you do that you are not doing the will of God but of man.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
No we cannot pray to whoever we want, or for that matter whatever we want.
For example, we cannot pray to Satan or a demon. We cannot pray to Adolph Hitter. We cannot go to a soothsayer, diviner, fortune teller, medium, physic, nor can we request that they summon the dead so we can ask them for our lucky numbers, predictions for the future, etc.
I suppose in a loose sense we "pray to saints" if by "prayer to saints" you mean "spiritual dialog." For example, I might say a prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel to help me defend the Catholic Faith. Notwithstanding the prayer itself "Help me defend the Faith" I understand that what is really happening is I am asking Saint Michael the Archangel to pray for me to Christ. The same with any saint. In the second place, any help I receive is always understood to be help the ultimately came from God as a result of the prayers of the saint, not any power the saint has inherent in themselves. This goes for Mary too. Finally, when praying "to" a saint--it is understood that we should never ask them to pray for anything that is against God's will--assuming we know and understand God's will for the situation in question.
Again, I have never understood the Protestant hang-ups with prayer to saints and perhaps I never will.
We are not to pray to those who are no longer on this earthly plane.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Like I said....
I will never understand the Protestant hang-ups with Mary and the saints and I never will.
I will say I never understand why RCs don't trust Jesus and need Mary and the saints. It is against the commandments. The RCC Mary is a false Mary.
Because of the horrific – even monstrous – caricature that they have of God: "If you work hard enough, and mutilate your body enough, I might let you into My Heaven. After an indeterminate length of time in Hell, Lite. Bwa-ha-ha-haaaa!" [denial of salvation by faith implies works are needed; self-flagellation; the "sin of presumption" means no certainty; Purgatory.] (As to "Purgatory may be no more than a warm shower", maybe, maybe not. Again, no guarantees.)
Because of this, they need their "Mary" to be a buffer between their god and them. They need her to replace Jesus because they have made a vicious, vindictive, judge of Him. Just the way Satan-the-Accuser would have people see Him.
--Rich
Atemi
Well-known member
As a Catholic, I was taught that being able to earn my way into Heaven by "being good" enough was "the gospel."
We all just hoped to squeak by and make it into Purgatory.
The interesting thing about that: most Roman Catholics are not afraid of Hell which they confess they may be their home for eternity if they do not make the cut.
That means most Roman Catholics believe they are so good that they deserve eternal life from God.
According to their own Saints, it is even worse than being burned alive.
Needless to say, they don't believe their own Saints.
I was constantly taught by the RCC to pray to Mary to protect me from Jesus.
I did not know at the time, but this was a sure sign these people do not know Jesus and do not love Him.
They are charlatans.
I was under the impression you could never be good enough to go straight to heaven unless you did something like float to the altar for communion etc. The best was purgatory but it was till hard to not go to hell. I mean you really needed a priest to be by your side, hearing your last confession and giving you last rites, as you died to ensure purgatory.
It was the RC way and still is by the works based salvation posts from RCs here. I mean some think they are humble but need to brag about it, so I am not sure they know what real good works are. We have seen how they do not understand love your neighbours and love your enemies in their posts. But probably they have their get out of jail card Mary all lined up to save them from the fires.