Can You Pray to Whoever You Want to?

romishpopishorganist said:
Yes, I know that most Protestants believe that is idolatry.
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Because it is.
romishpopishorganist said:
THAT is what I do not understand and never will.
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You need the HS to open your eyes to the truth.
romishpopishorganist said:
Why can't Protestants tell the difference between "honor" and "worship?"
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Oohhhh, so those Marian prayers we have posted, like to Our Lady of Perpetual Help, pleading with Mary to help and save them, are just "honoring" her?? :rolleyes:
 
Stella1000 said:
Atemi said:
Funny you would accuse all the godly men and women in Scripture of that! They didn't pray to the dead either.
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We have John's Revelation as evidence
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Nowhere in Revelation does the Apostle John ever pray to the dead, nor tell anyone else to pray to the dead.

So you cannot blame John for Catholic false doctrine.

Actually, we do have a record of John venerating an angel, but he was corrected from doing so....but still Catholics refuse to listen.
 
1Thess521 said:
so we are talking about a Biblical concept; prayer
and you don't want to use the word "pray" as it is used in the Bible
and you go on to suggest that those are using the Biblical meaning of a Biblical concept are the ones who are in error.

IOW: by using the biblical definition of the biblical word "pray" we are the ones in error.

does that sum up your position?
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I dispute the idea that the biblical concept of prayer excludes praying to others besides God. The fact that it is not mentioned does not mean it is excluded.
 
Stella1000 said:
We have John's Revelation as evidence that the saints in heaven can intercede for us. Rev 5:8. You just have a different interpretation of the vision. I trust the teaching Church's interpretation since it was they that confirmed the inspiration of Revelation.
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Nonsense. This bowl of incense is imagery that harks back to the OT, representing the prayers of the saints.

The RCC did not affirm Revelation as canon. Thstbus just more if your church's biasting. It did not even exist in the early church.

This gives a brief history of how Revelation came to be recognized as canon.

www.michaeljkruger.com

The Book of Revelation: How Difficult Was Its Journey into the Canon? - Canon Fodder

The story of the New Testament canon is a fascinating one, with many twists and turns. There are books that were accepted very quickly, almost from the start (e.g., the four gospels), and there are other books that struggled to find a home (e.g., 2 Peter). And then there is the book of...
www.michaeljkruger.com www.michaeljkruger.com

It was accepted by many ECF's in the early 2nd century. Long before the RCC came into existence.
 
LifeIn said:
I dispute the idea that the biblical concept of prayer excludes praying to others besides God. The fact that it is not mentioned does not mean it is excluded.
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great:
So if we go through a dozen lexicons, early Greek scholars, the LXX, and historical records
and we conclude that the description /defintion of the word "pray" as used in the Greek NT includes "only to a deity"
will it matter?

would it change to whom you should pray?
Be honest
 
Atemi said:
Nowhere in Revelation does the Apostle John ever pray to the dead, nor tell anyone else to pray to the dead.

So you cannot blame John for Catholic false doctrine.

Actually, we do have a record of John venerating an angel, but he was corrected from doing so....but still Catholics refuse to listen.
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Again I say it's your interpretation of Revelation that is false. For example we have St Jerome who was so prominent in the translation and canonisation of the inspired books, writing elsewhere... "If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won!" New Advent - Intercession.

If St Jerome is so trusted with the inspired books, why not trusted with his interpretation of their meaning?
 
Atemi said:
Lying about someone can never be considered a way to "honor" them.
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I presume you mean ascribing powers, glory, and some titles to departed saints that rightfully belong to God is "lying" about them, correct?
Atemi said:
Decent human beings everywhere understand this.
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Of course. Can you imagine what the REAL Mary and Peter, etc. would think about people praying to them as one would to God?

:oops:o_O???
 
Stella1000 said:
Again I say it's your interpretation of Revelation that is false. For example we have St Jerome who was so prominent in the translation and canonisation of the inspired books, writing elsewhere... "If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won!" New Advent - Intercession.

If St Jerome is so trusted with the inspired books, why not trusted with his interpretation of their meaning?
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Jerome isn't the Bible. He is speculating, plus, it is just his opinion.
 
Bonnie said:
I presume you mean ascribing powers, glory, and some titles to departed saints that rightfully belong to God is "lying" about them, correct?
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Including talking about her private sex life and making it dogma in their sect, telling her that her very own children did not exist, etc...


Bonnie said:
Of course. Can you imagine what the REAL Mary and Peter, etc. would think about people praying to them as one would to God?
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We all know they would be disgusted by it.
 
Stella1000 said:
Atemi said:
Nowhere in Revelation does the Apostle John ever pray to the dead, nor tell anyone else to pray to the dead.

So you cannot blame John for Catholic false doctrine.

Actually, we do have a record of John venerating an angel, but he was corrected from doing so....but still Catholics refuse to listen.
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Again I say it's your interpretation of Revelation that is false.
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I did not post my interpretation.

That is why you did not reply with any verse where we witness John praying to the dead or telling anyone else to pray to the dead. I am irrefutably correct.

Stella1000 said:
For example we have St Jerome who was so prominent in the translation and canonisation of the inspired books
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Jerome was not involved in the canonization of any books in your sect. You did not have your canon of Scripture until Trent. Jerome was not there.
 
Bonnie said:
Oh, really? So, how would one tell the difference?
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The same way you tell the difference in matters other than prayer. The ancient Hebrews that made a golden calf and gave burnt offerings to it and called it "the god that brought you up out of Egypt" were worshipping that golden calf. Those Hebrews who just had golden trinkets that they thought were pretty were not worshipping those trinkets. I guess the worst cases of worshipping a false God are when that worship involves immoral acts like fornication or human sacrifice. That is what idolatry is and was, especially in biblical times when many of the "other gods" of the time required such immoral acts of worship. Something that causes one to reject the commandments of the one true God. Today people can make an idol of their work, or the pursuit of money, to the extent that such pursuit leads them to sin against God. I'm not aware of any prayer to Mary that demands that one stop believing in God. The prayers to Mary are always made in recognition of her special relation with her son. I can see that if one denies that special relationship they might see prayer to Mary as idolatrous. But that is not a problem for us because we don't deny that special relationship.
 
Bonnie said:
Show us a true believer in the Bible who prayed to anyone else but God.
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Again we see the false assumption that if I can't point to a believer from the bible who prayed to anyone else but God, that prayer is therefore excluded (forbidden).
 
1Thess521 said:
great:
So if we go through a dozen lexicons, early Greek scholars, the LXX, and historical records
and we conclude that the description /defintion of the word "pray" as used in the Greek NT includes "only to a deity"
will it matter?
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Nope. To find evidence that something is forbidden requires explicit mention of the thing that is forbidden.
 
Atemi said:
Cultists and Roman Catholics are always more interested in what God did NOT say, rather than being true to what He did say.
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On the contrary, we are interested only in what He did say. Forbidding prayer others is one of those things God did NOT say.
 
LifeIn said:
Nope. To find evidence that something is forbidden requires explicit mention of the thing that is forbidden.
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Thank you. we have established that the biblical meaning of a word has no bearing on your beliefs.
and you believe those that hold to the biblical meaning of a word are in error.
(doesn't that seem just a little bit like "something's not right"?)

see also:
baptism
saints
church
 
1Thess521 said:
that's not the way the logic works

if Jesus told you to go immerse a group of new believers
do you think He wanted you to sprinkle them; because He did not forbid it?
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The logic error above is subtle. It's called a "false dichotomy". In general that's when a premise erroneously limits what options are available. In this case the two options are "Jesus wanted me to sprinkle people" and "Jesus forbids me to sprinkle people." Of course a third option is that "Jesus does not particularly care one way or the other".
 
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