TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
If you're prepared to give such criticism, you must be prepared to take it!
Shall we begin to enumerate your Greek paleographical blunders Mr Avery?
No. 1 You can't read Greek.
End of story.
Codex Sinaiticus and Constantine Simonides - was Simonides calligraphy skills good enough to forge the Codex Siniaticus?
- Thread starter TwoNoteableCorruptions
- Start date
If you're prepared to give such criticism, you must be prepared to take it!
Shall we begin to enumerate your Greek paleographical blunders Mr Avery?
No. 1 You can't read Greek.
End of story.
Steven Avery
Well-known member
So you have dropped your argument that his uncial writing was a failure.
Smart move.
Steven Avery
Well-known member
Apparently, you want to dance around the Bradshaw Blunder.
Did you even read his false claim?
It was on the level of your Uranios misidentification, but worse since it may mean he never saw the actual manuscript.
Nobody could physically check it during the controversies, since no one in the 1863-64 controversies had access to the manuscript.
Yet they relied on his false supposed palaeographical wisdom!
=================================
Note:
1) Reading Greek has nothing to do with the Bradshaw Blunder.
2) When it is helpful, I confer with those skilled in Greek.
3) When I do make an error, I am appreciative for the correction.
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TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
He was unconvinced, just like us.
You haven't proved anything yet.
When it comes to reading letters written in Greek...the ability to read Greek is indispensible.
No. You quote mine for confirmation bias contextomy snippets, and then miss-apply them.
No. I love giving you the runaround. ?
Steven Avery
Well-known member
On Uranios, what proof would you like short of delivering the Hermas palimpsest page from Vienna, Austria to your home or office?
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Steven Avery
Well-known member
Your game-playing is obvious.
Steven Avery
Well-known member
Yes, Henry Bradshaw claimed it was an ancient manuscript.
However his false codicological argument, the Bradshaw Blunder, puts his testimony under a dark cloud.
Perhaps he saw another manuscript, or the Cairo copy.
You haven't disproved Bradshaw. We need more evidence from you.
Steven Avery
Well-known member
Just read the description of Sinaiticus. It is all quaternions, each quire is 4 sheets = 16 pages. Thus when Tischendorf stole 43 leaves in 1844 is was 86 pages, five intact quires + 6 more pages.
There are two quires involving Revelation and Barnabas that are smaller quires, fewer leaves in each quire.
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John's gospel ends at Quire 81, Folio 6v, and then Romans starts at Quire 82, Folio 1r.
So what you say is untrue. Looking at OT books, there seem to be continuous quaternions, at least between end of Isaiah and start of Jeremiah (is all I've looked at).
Steven Avery
Well-known member
Zachary J. Cole describes the Revelation-Barnabas anomaly, while affirming the Sinaiticus norm of quires of 4 sheets, 8 leaves, 16 pages.
Numerals in Early Greek New Testament Manuscripts: Text-Critical, Scribal, and Theological Studies (2017)
https://books.google.com/books?id=B8zQDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA89
Interestingly, this portion of Revelation in א contains an anomaly in quire formation, a feature that may be related to the sudden use of abbreviated ordinals. Whereas the typical quire in א comprises four sheets folded in half (thus comprising eight leaves), quire 90, which contains the end of Revelation and beginning of Barnabas (Rev 20:10-22:21 and Barn. 1:1-14:4), comprises only three sheets (thus comprising six leaves). Quire 91 immediately follows, which is merely a single sheet quire (comprising two leaves) that contains the ending of Barnabas. The reason for the irregularity in makeup of quires 90 and 91 is not obvious, and multiple explanations are possible.
Steven Avery
Well-known member
Yes, a second anomaly, good catch.
Nazaroo (1957-2018) discusses that here.
Sinaiticus & Mark's Ending (Pt 11): Quire Structure - Synoptics
http://nazaroo.blogspot.com/2011/02/
However, Dirk Jongkind believes that the second John quire began as an 8-leaf quire.
And he nicely explains the basic structure, and the anomalies.
New Testament Manuscripts: Their Texts and Their World (2006)
edited by Thomas J Kraus, Tobias Nicklas
One Codex, Three Scribes, and Many Books: Struggles with Space in Codex Sinaiticus
Dirk Jongkind
https://books.google.com/books?id=oxJYEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA122
The basic physical unit of the codex is the quaternion, a gathering or quire of four sheets folded together. Thus, each quire consists of four sheets and eight folios, what makes 16 pages.4 Assuming that Hernias was the last book included in the original codex, it must have contained around 95 quires, of which 50 survive almost completely. Not all the extant quires are regular. Three quires, which started their life as standard eight-folio quires, have their last one or two folios cut out, apparently because these were left blank.5 Three other quires have less folios, because they were formed by using only one, two or three sheets.6 Despite the occasional glitch, the original design of the codex has been consistently followed throughout.
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So you deliberately disparaged Bradshaw, knowing perfectly well that what he said was true.
Shows your real character.
Jongkind identifies 6 incomplete quires. I have seen the same:
At the end of 1 Maccacbees
At the end of Malachai
At the end of John
At the end of Revelation
At the end of Barnabas
Steven Avery
Well-known member
Bradshaw was wrong, since dozens of quires are identical 8-leaf quires.
Consistent, against his false claim.
And this is not an argument against Athos production, and that idea was disparaged by Scrivener-Miller.
Dirk Jongkind
However, I did not have the full count till the quotes posted yesterday.
So your fake mind-reading is discarded as typical contra posturing.
Here you can see how Alexandrinus was seen as having variable quires in 22 spots.
A Study of the Gospels in Codex Alexandrinus: Codicology, Palaeography, and Scribal Hands (2014)
William Andrew Smith
https://books.google.com/books?id=pWHPBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA89
So obviously the Sinaiticus arrangement is far more akin to Bezae than Alexandrinus. Alexandrinus is a complex mess.
The Bradshaw quote remains wrong on both elements.
Note that nobody has tried to justify the Bradshaw palaeographical argument against the Athos production of Sinaiticus at any time in the next 160 years.
And note that Bradshaw gave no actual real, solid arguments.
What we have is all "intuition" and a fake, deceptive, fraudulent codicology claim.
We can also conclude that it was unlikely that he saw any 1844 CFA leaves in the vicinity of the darker, stained 1859 pages.
Worthless.
Bradshaw
https://books.google.com/books?id=j-u5AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA95
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Steven Avery
Well-known member
And this note from the other thread helps unravel the 1860s weak argumentation:
(Small changes below.)
The truth might create angst, and be perceived as cognitive dissonance, in today’s lingo,
The “rush to judgment”, without an objective palaeographic analysis, let Tischendorf duck the 1863 English trip.
So they should have simply waited.
Have Tischendorf come over with the manuscript.
Or at least five leafs from Leipzig (include the colophons and the three crosses note),and five from St. Petersburg.
Put Tischendorf up in a nice hotel for a week, courtesy of the Royal Society. See if he likes Cornish pastry and fish ‘n chips.
Maybe Uspensky would have blown the whistle a bit earlier, that it is definitely not an old manuscript, no gray hair, no wrinkles. Burgon and Scrivener would surely see that truth. Tregelles could see he was Tischen-duped. Simonides would be vindicated, but only on this one point.
The controversy would have been over in a day.
Bye, bye Sinaiticus.
(Small changes below.)
The truth might create angst, and be perceived as cognitive dissonance, in today’s lingo,
The “rush to judgment”, without an objective palaeographic analysis, let Tischendorf duck the 1863 English trip.
So they should have simply waited.
Have Tischendorf come over with the manuscript.
Or at least five leafs from Leipzig (include the colophons and the three crosses note),and five from St. Petersburg.
Put Tischendorf up in a nice hotel for a week, courtesy of the Royal Society. See if he likes Cornish pastry and fish ‘n chips.
Maybe Uspensky would have blown the whistle a bit earlier, that it is definitely not an old manuscript, no gray hair, no wrinkles. Burgon and Scrivener would surely see that truth. Tregelles could see he was Tischen-duped. Simonides would be vindicated, but only on this one point.
The controversy would have been over in a day.
Bye, bye Sinaiticus.
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TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
Bradshaw was wrong, since dozens of quires are identical 8-leaf quires.
Consistent, against his false claim.
And this is not an argument against Athos production, and that idea was disparaged by Scrivener-Miller.
Dirk Jongkind
However, I did not have the full count till the quotes posted yesterday.
So your fake mind-reading is discarded as typical contra posturing.
Here you can see how Alexandrinus was seen as having variable quires in 22 spots.
A Study of the Gospels in Codex Alexandrinus: Codicology, Palaeography, and Scribal Hands (2014)
William Andrew Smith
https://books.google.com/books?id=pWHPBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA89
View attachment 4616
So obviously the Sinaiticus arrangement is far more akin to Bezae than Alexandrinus. Alexandrinus is a complex mess.
The Bradshaw quote remains wrong on both elements.
Note that nobody has tried to justify the Bradshaw palaeographical argument against the Athos production of Sinaiticus at any time in the next 160 years.
And note that Bradshaw gave no actual real, solid arguments.
What we have is all "intuition" and a fake, deceptive, fraudulent codicology claim.
We can also conclude that it was unlikely that he saw any 1844 CFA leaves in the vicinity of the darker, stained 1859 pages.
Worthless.
Bradshaw
https://books.google.com/books?id=j-u5AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA95
Do both Smith and Jonkind's modern study's include the 1975 New Finds parchments?
Do they include Uspenky's (and the Society of Lovers of Ancient in St. Petersburg) parchment fragments?
In other words, parts of the manuscript Bradshaw didn't, and couldn't have had access to?
TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
Perhaps if we were to dig up some statements and erroneous assertions from you circa 2011, in other words in the early stages of your research, do think that would be fair to harp on it and inflate them sky high? And say: AH HA! ...
What do you think Mr Avery? Is that fair by your standards Mr Avery?
Has it occurred to you, that's exactly what you're doing with Bradshaw's early assertions (right or wrong) in the early stage of the English newspaper controversies?
What if he (now dead and incapable of doing anything) had spent over a decade researching the Codex Sinaiticus and Simonides claims day and night like you ... do you think he might have said some things differently to what he did in 1862, in the more mature stages of his research?
Shall we drag up your early blunderamas? And judge you by the same standards?
What do you think Mr Avery? Is that fair by your standards Mr Avery?
Has it occurred to you, that's exactly what you're doing with Bradshaw's early assertions (right or wrong) in the early stage of the English newspaper controversies?
What if he (now dead and incapable of doing anything) had spent over a decade researching the Codex Sinaiticus and Simonides claims day and night like you ... do you think he might have said some things differently to what he did in 1862, in the more mature stages of his research?
Shall we drag up your early blunderamas? And judge you by the same standards?
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TwoNoteableCorruptions
Well-known member
Nonetheless...
Whatever scribble Simonides scrawled out...
The overall end result was = Bradshaw was un-convinced!
Simonides Uncial script (whether good or bad) FAILED to convince!
Simonides reminds me of some lyrics from a song!
"Have you heard about the lonesome looser .. he's a looser, but he still keeps on trying..." (Little River Band)
Whatever scribble Simonides scrawled out...
The overall end result was = Bradshaw was un-convinced!
Simonides Uncial script (whether good or bad) FAILED to convince!
Simonides reminds me of some lyrics from a song!
"Have you heard about the lonesome looser .. he's a looser, but he still keeps on trying..." (Little River Band)
Steven Avery
Well-known member
The Hermas fragments from the New Finds have a question number by their quire # 90+? And say the expected number is 95. So no real help.
Afaik, the other fragments you mention have no quire numbers, being inside parts of the page.