Does man have a free will ?

[Beloved Daughter]

There seems so much emphasis on free will, but it is no where taught in the scriptures .

You are correct, there is no verse in all of scripture that speaks of free will unto salvation. There is one poster who likes to use 1 verse that is not in the context of salvation. He provides the same verse in many translations, but posting that has no effect on salvation. He quotes Philemon 1:14. I read the entire chapter and there is nothing about free will.

Here is what the Bible provides:

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?



Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.



Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,



Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,



1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,



Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.



Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.


God Speed

 

[Predestined]

In order to think biblically about the freedom that people possess, we must ask a crucial question: where are those persons located in the biblical story? Human freedom looks different at the various times human beings appear in the story: at creation, as fallen people after the fall, as redeemed people after the fall, and as glorified people after the resurrection of the dead.

So if you consider human freedom in light of the unfolding biblical story. At creation God gave Adam and Eve freedom of choice and true freedom. Freedom of choice is the ability to make spontaneous choices according to the inclinations of the will. This is an unlosable part of our humanness. But true freedom is losable, and in fact was lost in the fall. True freedom is relational; it is the ability to know, love, serve, and enjoy God as he intended. So with our relationship with Christ are true freedom is restored.

Joshua 24:15​

... choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (ESV)

 

[Simpletruther]

A rather poor way to define free will

Did Jesus make a free will decision?

John 10:18 (KJV)
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Where does it even imply a libertarian free will decision here

 

[Reformedguy]

Easy. Sin.

And how do you know?

 

[fltom]

You are correct, there is no verse in all of scripture that speaks of free will unto salvation. There is one poster who likes to use 1 verse that is not in the context of salvation. He provides the same verse in many translations, but posting that has no effect on salvation.

God saves

but Man believes

Here is what the Bible provides:

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Deasl with the time Christ was on the earth doing the fathers will. God was giving to Christ those that were his

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

This is how enabled

John 6:45 (KJV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Not a single word there about unconditional election to salvation

and salvation/righteousness is based upon faith a condition

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

here also

Romans 11:17-23 (KJV)
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

where belief/unbelief results in being grafted in or being cutting off

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

as result of having trusted in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

not unconditional

Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

A promise to those who love God

again a condition

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Through faith not unconditional

Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Nothing there about unconditional election to salvation and no mention of why they were appointed or disposed


you have to assume your reasoning

Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Having forgiven your sin which is through faith and repentance

No unconditional salvation there either

Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

This says how not why

so is no proof for unconditional election

in any case this is salvation which over and over again the bible tells us is through faith

end pt1

 

[fltom]

end pt1

1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Yes God regenerates

He does so for all who receive Christ

John 1:12 (NASB77)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

those who believe the gospel

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV 1900)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

Repentance is granted through the message of repentance the gospel

As we see concerning Cornelius and the gentiles

Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

One must have faith before one can receive the spirit

John 7:38, 39; Acts 2:36; Gal 3:2, 5, 14; Eph 3:17

Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Context

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 (NASB77)
1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,
3 then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.
4 "If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.
5 "And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live.

 

[fltom]

Where does it even imply a libertarian free will decision here

He chose of himself to lay his life down

Do you deny he could have avoided doing sucht

 

[David1701]

I’m not taking about “ fallen Adam “

I’m talking about him pre fall

Adam, pre-fall, had a will that was ... a slave to his nature, just as everyone else's will is. The will is, by its very nature, a slave; it is that which attempts to enact the strongest desire, at any given moment. The strongest desire is the captain and the will is its executive officer.

 

[David1701]

In order to think biblically about the freedom that people possess, we must ask a crucial question: where are those persons located in the biblical story? Human freedom looks different at the various times human beings appear in the story: at creation, as fallen people after the fall, as redeemed people after the fall, and as glorified people after the resurrection of the dead.

So if you consider human freedom in light of the unfolding biblical story. At creation God gave Adam and Eve freedom of choice and true freedom. Freedom of choice is the ability to make spontaneous choices according to the inclinations of the will. This is an unlosable part of our humanness. But true freedom is losable, and in fact was lost in the fall. True freedom is relational; it is the ability to know, love, serve, and enjoy God as he intended. So with our relationship with Christ are true freedom is restored.

Joshua 24:15​

... choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (ESV)

Fallen man still makes choices, according to the inclinations of his desires. The difference is that those desires are now fallen.

Being born of God restores our spirit to fellowship with the Lord and to desiring what is pleasing to Him, in our inner man. It is not freedom of choice that is restored, since we did not lose that (sinners still choose, without being coerced, it's just that they choose what they desire the most - to sin). What is restored, is freedom to desire righteously (in the Fall, we became free from righteousness), which, in turn, causes us to will righteously.

Joshua 24:15 is a sarcastic exhortation to choose between two sets of idols, if they won't serve God. It says absolutely nothing about any supposed ability of the natural man to choose contrary to his nature.

 

[guest1]

Adam, pre-fall, had a will that was ... a slave to his nature, just as everyone else's will is. The will is, by its very nature, a slave; it is that which attempts to enact the strongest desire, at any given moment. The strongest desire is the captain and the will is its executive officer.

Got scripture for that philosophical argument

 

[shnarkle]

What would be a choice you were not created to choose and how would you know ?

What makes you think how one knows matters?

 

[shnarkle]

the ability to choose simpliciter.

What does that mean?

Free will is simple a having of the ability to choose not necessarily exercising any choice imaginable.

I don't recall anyone disputing the definition of free will. The problem is in not noticing that one is predisposed to choose. There are a number of hypnotists that have proven this time and again. People think that they're making a choice, but the choice has already been made for them. It's quite amusing, but with some thoughtful reflection, it become quite apparent that free will is a pathetic joke.

 

[Reformedguy]

What makes you think how one knows matters?

Huh?

 

[David1701]

Got scripture for that philosophical argument

Eph. 2:3 (Webster) Among whom also we all had our manner of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The will is that which attempts to bring into reality what the person desires most.

 

[guest1]

Eph. 2:3 (Webster) Among whom also we all had our manner of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The will is that which attempts to bring into reality what the person desires most.

That’s fallen man but thanks .

 

[David1701]

That’s fallen man but thanks .

The second part was EVERY man.

"The will is that which attempts to bring into reality what the person desires most."

The Scripture (Eph. 2:3) applies to fallen man, in that it refers to the result of his nature being fallen (i.e. the desires of the flesh and mind are now sinful); but, the principle is universal (that we attempt to fulfil the desires that we have - that is what the will does).

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Yes God regenerates

He does so for all who receive Christ

John 1:12 (NASB77)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

those who believe the gospel

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV 1900)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.




Repentance is granted through the message of repentance the gospel

As we see concerning Cornelius and the gentiles



One must have faith before one can receive the spirit

John 7:38, 39; Acts 2:36; Gal 3:2, 5, 14; Eph 3:17


Context

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 (NASB77)
1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,
3 then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.
4 "If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.
5 "And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live.

Am I talking to you or Flowers? You can try to add whatever you like, but you cannot refute that there is no free will involved in salvation. Your verse from Philemon, that you tried to use, has nothing to do with salvation, but you quoted it ad nauseum.

The elect are chosen before the foundation of the world and as such, you have no argument.

 

[fltom]

Am I talking to you or Flowers? You can try to add whatever you like, but you cannot refute that there is no free will involved in salvation. Your verse from Philemon, that you tried to use, has nothing to do with salvation, but you quoted it ad nauseum.

The elect are chosen before the foundation of the world and as such, you have no argument.

Do you see any other name but mine?

In any case you failed to address a single verse so I have plenty of arguments.

Your bald denial cannot make them go away

There is no unconditional election to salvation found anywhere in scripture

Faith everywhere is shown to be the condition upon which God saves

The free will comes in trusting Christ for your salvation

 

[Reformedguy]

God desired that man sin?

He determined man would sin, yes.

 

[Ontos]

What does that mean?

Not sure how simpler it can be - it just the ability to choose, that's it.

I don't recall anyone disputing the definition of free will. The problem is in not noticing that one is predisposed to choose. There are a number of hypnotists that have proven this time and again. People think that they're making a choice, but the choice has already been made for them. It's quite amusing, but with some thoughtful reflection, it become quite apparent that free will is a pathetic joke.

If you hold to that and if we follow this through, then it makes no sense to say you did "some thoughtful reflection" since admittedly you were "predisposed to choose" what you wrote here. And, any reply back to me would be trapped in the same deterministic loop...