How does God make a person "elect" and a "child of God"?

[Reformedguy]

You make a point here which is valid, but you don't incorporate that point into your interpretation,
In your example, the teacher's language identified the group. They said "you" and "homework" which claified who and what is the topic.
Also you ignored my example without any comment.
But my example and your example both demonstrate context based on other words in the sentence, which is the problem with your interpretatiom of "all have faith" You are going back a distance into the letter to determine context instead of starting with immediate context.

I told you what the teacher said in my anology. You don't get to add to it to suit your needs.

Audience relevance is very important. Romans is written to believers. Verse 1 "I appeal to you therefore BROTHERS". These are those who have been given a measure of faith.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

That is not saving faith... Anyone can believe God exists. Also, Goats don't become sheep. And sheep don't become goats...

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

I agree that the faith God gave the goats did not save them, otherwise in that parable those people would be symbolized by sheep. And yes, I agree: Believing that God exists and made the world is faith, but it does not save you.
You must entrust yourself to Him to get saved.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

I told you what the teacher said in my anology. You don't get to add to it to suit your needs.

Audience relevance is very important. Romans is written to believers. Verse 1 "I appeal to you therefore BROTHERS". These are those who have been given a measure of faith.

You misread my post, I added nothing to your analogy. Instead I compared yours with mine and talked about how they were both parts of the truth. And suggested you were not using the same logic to determine who was given faith.
yes audience relevance is important, and Paul is initially teaching a specific audience, the church in Rome. your error, as far as I can see is to deny that God giving all faith, while directed to the Roman church as a teaching, was not topically limited JUST to them.

And my analogy that you ignored, showed how the immediate audience can be taught about something that affects them as well as all humans.
You have not attempted to explain why this teaching on faith cannot include them and all humans. Again, we agree the teaching is directed at them, but the topic is relevant to all humans, would you think that when Paul is teaching the Roman church he is unable to make a point that has a broader application than just for them?

 

[Reformedguy]

You misread my post, I added nothing to your analogy. Instead I compared yours with mine and talked about how they were both parts of the truth. And suggested you were not using the same logic to determine who was given faith.
yes audience relevance is important, and Paul is initially teaching a specific audience, the church in Rome. your error, as far as I can see is to deny that God giving all faith, while directed to the Roman church as a teaching, was not topically limited JUST to them.

And my analogy that you ignored, showed how the immediate audience can be taught about something that affects them as well as all humans.
You have not attempted to explain why this teaching on faith cannot include them and all humans. Again, we agree the teaching is directed at them, but the topic is relevant to all humans, would you think that when Paul is teaching the Roman church he is unable to make a point that has a broader application than just for them?

I deny gives all faith for a simple reason. It does not hint let alone say He has. See Romas 12:1 to see who Paul is addressing. These are those He has given a measure of faith.

Sorry but the assertion is yours and the burden of proof lies with you. God gives all, every last person. A measure of faith. Show us in Romans 12. A text you have not attempted to exegete as of yet. I look forward to it.

 

[Sketo]

Is there something that God does to influence someone that is ignorant (a unbeliever) of God's reality that makes them "elect" and a child of God?

This question falsely assumes that God “elects us” after he created us based on our accomplishment, but the truth is God “elected us” according to his Purpose before he created any thing.

God Planned the means he would use to accomplish his Purpose and Determined the part we would play in accomplishing that Purpose before he created any thing…

… we are created as a part of the means to his Purpose.

And if so, then what is it that He does that accomplishes this feat?

“For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.” (Rom 5:19)

“But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” (2Th 2:13)

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Php 2:13)

“For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” (1Jn 5:4)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8)

“And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,” (1Co 1:30)

…

 

[Alexander the adequate]

I deny gives all faith for a simple reason. It does not hint let alone say He has. See Romas 12:1 to see who Paul is addressing. These are those He has given a measure of faith.

Sorry but the assertion is yours and the burden of proof lies with you. God gives all, every last person. A measure of faith. Show us in Romans 12. A text you have not attempted to exegete as of yet. I look forward to it.

Your assertion was that he gives all the elect a measure of faith.
Did you forget that was the genesis of this part of the thead, your addition of "elect"
My assertion would be that you should not insert a word into scripture, do I really have to prove that to you?
And what is the constant garbage of burden of proof as if we are competing in some game?
If you have a point demonstrate it and be short and to the point

 

[Reformedguy]

Your assertion was that he gives all the elect a measure of faith.
Did you forget that was the genesis of this part of the thead, your addition of "elect"
My assertion would be that you should not insert a word into scripture, do I really have to prove that to you?
And what is the constant garbage of burden of proof as if we are competing in some game?
If you have a point demonstrate it and be short and to the point

No one cares about your assertions. It's what you can prove. I have demonstrated who the audience is in Romans 12 and who it is that has been given a measure of faith. Never said anything about the elect.

Burden of proof is garbage? So you can make baseless assertions with no need to back it up?

I will make my points the way I want to make them. If I want your advice I will ask.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

No one cares about your assertions. It's what you can prove. I have demonstrated who the audience is in Romans 12 and who it is that has been given a measure of faith. Never said anything about the elect.

Burden of proof is garbage? So you can make baseless assertions with no need to back it up?

I will make my points the way I want to make them. If I want your advice I will as

Alexander the adequate : It was specifically stated in the thread,on the side you are supporting that God gives a measure of faith to the elect. Why deny that now? It is in the thread.

And again yes, in a discussion between Christians about what the word means, an appeal to burden of proof is a garbage tactic designed to side step the obvious.
Yes, make your points your own way and when you are called out on what you do, face it honestly

 

[Reformedguy]

And again yes, in a discussion between Christians about what the word means, an appeal to burden of proof is a garbage tactic designed to side step the obvious.
Yes, make your points your own way and when you are called out on what you do, face it honestly

So no one has the burden of proof? When I went to school it was the person who made the positive assertion. Seth: God gives everyone a measure of faith. Reformedguy: no He does not. The burden of proof lies with you in this scenario.

 

[Tercon]

this post is false in the assertion that the phrase "believing mind" appears 500+ times

I didn't mean that the phrase "believing mind" appears 500+ times". Rather, I meant the words belief, believe and believing is mention 500+ times in the Bible. And belief, believe and believing logically entails a mind in order to believe, have belief or in believing.

Again, why is it so hard to supply a definition for your own , non-biblical, term?

It's not hard, as I have told you where I got the definition from of 'believing mind', but you do have to read it for yourself. Read every verse.

 

[Tercon]

This question falsely assumes that God “elects us” after he created us based on our accomplishment, but the truth is God “elected us” according to his Purpose before he created any thing.

Strawman. No, it rightly assumes and implies that we can't know God as our Father until we become a believer and children of God. And I believe that the faith (belief) that saved me Originated in and with God. So, saving faith or salvation is something that God did prior to me believing in accordance with Him that made me believe.

God Planned the means he would use to accomplish his Purpose and Determined the part we would play in accomplishing that Purpose before he created any thing…
… we are created as a part of the means to his Purpose.



“For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.” (Rom 5:19)

“But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” (2Th 2:13)

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Php 2:13)

“For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” (1Jn 5:4)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8)

“And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,” (1Co 1:30)

…

Yes I know, He done this by believing. We become His child when we believe in accordance with Him. Belief or faith isn't something we do or come up with on our own.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

So no one has the burden of proof? When I went to school it was the person who made the positive assertion. Seth: God gives everyone a measure of faith. Reformedguy: no He does not. The burden of proof lies with you in this scenario.

As to burden of proof. That is for game players jockeying to be first in their own eyes.
If you have a point and a scripture it comes from say so, let us discuss scripture and logic, but "burden of proof" is coy and unworthy of Christian discourse.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

I didn't mean that the phrase "believing mind" appears 500+ times". Rather, I meant the words belief, believe and believing is mention 500+ times in the Bible. And belief, believe and believing logically entails a mind in order to believe, have belief or in believing.



It's not hard, as I have told you where I got the definition from of 'believing mind', but you do have to read it for yourself. Read every verse.

If you are saying you gave me a string of verses so that I could pick out of them where you got your concept of a believing mind, surely you could understand that will not work? All the while you could have given a one sentence defintion of what YOU mean by a believing mind.
i am not claiming that it is incorrect, I just don't know what you mean by it. Since you won't give a simple direct definition let me give it a couple tries
1 believing mind is a gift from God whereby you are invested with faith
2, believing mind is an attitude of agreement with God

 

[Reformedguy]

As to burden of proof. That is for game players jockeying to be first in their own eyes.
If you have a point and a scripture it comes from say so, let us discuss scripture and logic, but "burden of proof" is coy and unworthy of Christian discourse.

It's actually the way debate works. If you can't handle it then with all due respect you should find a different hobby. To suggest anyone can make any assertion with no burden of proof is silly.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

It's actually the way debate works. If you can't handle it then with all due respect you should find a different hobby. To suggest anyone can make any assertion with no burden of proof is silly.

I did not say that a person could prove a Biblical point without proof. And you know that.
What I talked about was this contstant, childish defense of the poster calling out "burden of proof" when it is obvious the poster has no idea how to defend what they are positing.

Are you debating here to win something? That is why a debating team is structuring their argument for a blue ribbon. They need to be convincing, and truth can take a back seat as long as they win.

 

[Reformedguy]

I did not say that a person could prove a Biblical point without proof. And you know that.
What I talked about was this contstant, childish defense of the poster calling out "burden of proof" when it is obvious the poster has no idea how to defend what they are positing.

Are you debating here to win something? That is why a debating team is structuring their argument for a blue ribbon. They need to be convincing, and truth can take a back seat as long as they win.

If you don't like my tactics don't respond. Problem solved. Explaining to you elementary principles of debat is tiring and apparently unproductive. Have a nice day

 

[Alexander the adequate]

If you don't like my tactics don't respond. Problem solved. Explaining to you elementary principles of debat is tiring and apparently unproductive. Have a nice day

Thanks for the good wishes, but I still contend that if we are Christians, these conversations should not be solely about trying to be right, but about explaining what we see. When you, or any other poster, refuses to support what you say and instead retreats to "burden of proof" It is a sad sign of a bankrupt ability to defend truth.

And yes your word "tactics" speaks to the same thing. You want to win, more than you wnat to share truth

 

[Tercon]

If you are saying you gave me a string of verses so that I could pick out of them where you got your concept of a believing mind, surely you could understand that will not work? All the while you could have given a one sentence defintion of what YOU mean by a believing mind.
i am not claiming that it is incorrect, I just don't know what you mean by it. Since you won't give a simple direct definition let me give it a couple tries
1 believing mind is a gift from God whereby you are invested with faith
2, believing mind is an attitude of agreement with God

If you don't want to know, then don't pretend you do.

A Believing Mind is how God makes Himself known to believers, everything that God does with believers is done in and through a His Believing Mind and to us as believers in accord with our believing mind. Even the HS's influence on believers is by influencing our belief.

Are you saying that none of this is true?

 

[guest1]

If you don't want to know, then don't pretend you do.

A Believing Mind is how God makes Himself known to believers, everything that God does with believers is done in and through a His Believing Mind and to us as believers in accord with our believing mind. Even the HS's influence on believers is by influencing our belief.

Are you saying that none of this is true?

Oh boy the Mind games again lol .

 

[HealTheLand]

#54 , @Reformedguy

the question to ask one's self -- is -- does Love talk that / those ways -- over and over and over and over again?

alot of things here can be very difficult to read much -- due to the way it often is so argumentative and -- not as a Child (or Spiritual)...

full of questions and wonder .... seeking the truth, talking about 'truths' revealed to us by the Spirit / the Bible or by thought -- over time and / or through experience.

maybe just try to share your thoughts / beliefs more... not to argue in such ways -- so much. because -- does God / Christ talk to us like that?