How to know that God exists.

yrger

Member
Don't you find it interesting that we agree that we see and understand so little of what we are actually able to in this transcended world around us, but you don't stop at that level of common ignorance in your assertions? No, you take a giant step over the 96% of the unknown that is available to us, ignore it, and instead try to define the transcendent that isn't available to us - for us. How do you rate? Why don't you stick to what you can possibly know?

Do you know why it is so easy for you to ignore the 96% and just go for the transcendent? Because the 96% takes effort. That knowledge many are too lazy to study, so you try to make a stab at the transcendent instead because it can't be defined or studied by the transcended world so you have free reign to make up whatever you want. It's easy, and cheap.

What is my concept of Gods that don't exist? Easy.... Any sentient disembodied mind that creates and directs whatever it desires by the power of it's will.

Hi 5wize, we were talking about nature, if memory serves, you opined that nature is all there is, and I asked how you knew that nature is all there is, and you answered, because you observed nature, and found out nature is all there is.

At this point I said that scientists know only a mere 4% of the universe, the remainder of 96% they are in the dark.

Now you are telling me that I cannot just jump over the 96% of the universe and declare that nature is not there but God is there.

Okay then, let us just talk about nature in just the 4% of the universe scientists know.

Scientists tell us that there was the Big Bang which is the start of the universe, and at that point in time and in space, there was no nature yet.

What about God, was He there already?

Of course God was and is present all the time and everywhere, because the Big Bang did not come from absolute nothingness.

And God ordered things so that nature eventually came into existnce, the nature where there are mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me.
 

yrger

Member
Not the sole, but primary.
Otherwise, you're making yourself a creator and worshiper of false gods.
It leaves you just as dead as the atheists.


Indeed.
We're instructed in the Proverbs and by Jesus himself on this.
The very concept of repent is based on the word, metanoia. Metanoia simply means to change your mind.
In this application, it means to change your mind about God, and his ways, to agree with him.

In June 1977, I knew nothing about all this bible stuff.
I was a pothead, stoner, used various drugs, alcohol and whatever else I could find to numb the truth of my life and world.

I despised man-made religious beliefs. I'd talked with a variety of people who claimed numerous different ideas and beliefs about gods, God, and philosophy. None of them were of interest to me.

Then one night I was invited to a church where they talked about Jesus.
Not the Jesus of religion. But a Jesus who was real, alive, and in our every day world.
Still, nothing really struck me about it. Then I observed something that struck a cord. It got to the very core of my beliefs about life in general. That was enough to stop me dead in my tracks, and get passed all the people and all the arguments and debates about God, to the point where I asked God himself.

Are you for real? Is this Jesus stuff I'm hearing for real, or just another pile of religious bs?

Two very simple, and primal questions. I didn't want to be religious. I'd previously been explained that I would not fit in the world of religious people. I hated suits, and I'm not really all that nice a guy.
What stunned me is that God responded to me. He showed me something that I'd never perceived before then.
It was that very encounter that caused me to respond- I want to know that Jesus.
So, I began to learn. It took time, and I had my ups and downs. But I kept moving forward and learning.

You don't have to figure it out for yourself.
YHVH himself and Jesus Christ will make themselves known as knowable to you. Simply for the asking.
We read- whosoever shall call on the Lord shall be saved.

Then why not take the time to learn to follow Jesus?
It's a curious thing about this.

In the Law we read,

You shall love YHVH your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your MIND.
Jesus reiterated that when asked what the two great commandments were in Matthew 22.

I have a book here, titled- Love God with all your mind. The author is JP Moreland.
It's older (1997), so I'd say you should be able to get it for a lower price than when it was brand new.

Love your God with all your mind book buy https://g.co/kgs/wsqQA9

Hi SteveB, you believe in the authority of the Bible, that is why you are citing verses in the Bible.

Now I ask you, why do you believe in the authority of th Bible?
You will tell me, because the Bible is reliable.
So I ask you, how do you know the Bible is realiable?
And you will tell me, because there is authority in the Bible.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Isn't it nice to know that you and you alone are responsible for your own eternal destiny.

You get to decide whether you want to live in a paradise designed explicitly for your extensive happiness.

Or, in a place where no thought was given for you.
There is no indication that anything I do in this life will affect my "eternal destiny."
 

yrger

Member
The way I look at it, on how to come to the existence of God.


There are three ways man comes to know the existence of God:

1. By man's intelligence and his rational faculty and his reasoning process.
2. By reading the Bible for Christians and Orthodox Jews, and the Koran for Muslims.
3. By meditation.


I know God exists by the No. 1 way.

Very briefly:
a. Man is a transient entity i.e. he is here today and then after some years of life like as much as 90 years plus, he dies.
b. The transient existence of man inevitably implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
c. So, man you and I and all humans, we are the evidence to the existence of God.
d. Therefore God exists.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
The way I look at it, on how to come to the existence of God.


There are three ways man comes to know the existence of God:

1. By man's intelligence and his rational faculty and his reasoning process.
2. By reading the Bible for Christians and Orthodox Jews, and the Koran for Muslims.
3. By meditation.


I know God exists by the No. 1 way.

Very briefly:
a. Man is a transient entity i.e. he is here today and then after some years of life like as much as 90 years plus, he dies.
b. The transient existence of man inevitably implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
c. So, man you and I and all humans, we are the evidence to the existence of God.
d. Therefore God exists.
There is nothing to show that 1,2 or 3 will get you to knowledge of the existence of God.
a. is self evident.
You provide nothing to support b and c.
Therefore d. does not follow.
 

4tune8chance

Active member
In ultimate summation, existence is of two kinds:
Really? All you are doing is making categories. I can do that also, existence has two forms:
a. That that is living and that that is not, or
b. Radiation or material, or
c. Green, and not Green, or
d. wet, and not wet,
e. etc, etc, etc.

a. Permanent self-existent kind which is God.
Leaping so many steps, Your defining necessary properties of the very thing you're trying to prove exists, talk about circular reasoning.

b. Transient kind which is anything like for example, you and I, we have a beginning and an ending.
I would think everything is transient given enough time.

So, we implicate the existence of God our creator.
No, its just word salad and false reasoning - here is an example of similar:

All dogs have four legs,
But my cat has four legs,
Therefor my cat is a dog.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Why don't you stick to what you can possibly know?

Why don't YOU offer some proof that all that can be known is that which can be detected by the five senses?

As best as I can tell your "proof" would sound something like this:

"I, 5wize have never experienced anything other than that which I have empirically verified, THEREFORE neither has anyone else and THEREFORE no realm exists which might transcend the empirical and THEREFORE the billions of people throughout history who have claimed such experiences must be either deceived or lying."
 

5wize

Well-known member
Hi 5wize, we were talking about nature, if memory serves, you opined that nature is all there is, and I asked how you knew that nature is all there is, and you answered, because you observed nature, and found out nature is all there is.
Not quite accurate. I said you have no warrant to assert a transcendent sentient and willful God-force creating and directing nature because there is no observation in nature that leads one to that assumption, not even logically. So the best model of nature so far is that the nature we experience is not created by the will of any being, but generates itself as a force of its own nature. You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker..
At this point I said that scientists know only a mere 4% of the universe, the remainder of 96% they are in the dark.

Now you are telling me that I cannot just jump over the 96% of the universe and declare that nature is not there but God is there.
I never said you claimed nature is not there. I just claimed that if you cannot know 96% of what is in front of you, how can you suddenly know 100% of what isn't, such as the forces of existence prior to the big-bang that generated the nature we experience. The best model you have is the nature in front of you and it does not direct you back to any eternally existent willful being. Maybe just some more eternally existent nature that we are not privy to. You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker..
Okay then, let us just talk about nature in just the 4% of the universe scientists know.

Scientists tell us that there was the Big Bang which is the start of the universe, and at that point in time and in space, there was no nature yet.
No. Wrong. Just because you have no insights into whatever the nature of existence was prior to our big-bang you don't get to assert one as fanciful as some being that willed it all. If you claim a God-being can exist eternally outside of time and space I can assert that some type of nature can exist eternally outside of time and space. The model of nature we observe points to that because you cannot trace back the generation of anything we witness, be it protons, electrons, atoms, elements, molecules, cells, trees, and brains, to any willful hand of God like you can trace a watch back to a watchmaker. These things act like they were always present in this space-time and forming other things in accordance to natural rules that take care of themselves quite nicely without the directing hand of some willful being.
What about God, was He there already?
You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker, so no.
Of course God was and is present all the time and everywhere, because the Big Bang did not come from absolute nothingness.
We already agree that existence always was so there is no such thing as nothingness. You assert that the nature of existence prior to the big bang was some willful, directing God-being. I assert it was just a different form of natural existence that produced what we experience now. My model is not fanciful or anthropomorphic. You are forced to use transcended terms like being and create and direct and ordered to create your own transcendent ideal of a god-being. This is how I now you are wrong immediately. You can't get there from here, not even logically. You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker. What we call a being did not show up in the timeline of nature until very recently. Now you take that concept of a naturally generated being and pretend there was always an eternal one - without a body - willing stuff like comets, volcanoes and lava and cavemen and disease. It's really kind of silly when you think about it.
And God ordered things so that nature eventually came into existnce, the nature where there are mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me.
Nope. Show me the order. There is more evidence that existence itself generated mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me without any hand of a willful directing being acting as some short order cook. You cannot reverse engineer anything except man made things back to any creator being. You can trace a watch back to a watchmaker, but you cannot trace nature back to a nature-maker.... we are the only creator beings. The rest is eternally existent nature of both the measurable and unmeasurable types.
 
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stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
There is more evidence that existence itself generated mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me without any hand of a willful directing being as stated above.

Then let's see some of that evidence.

Show us all how existence generated living things.
 

Oseas

Member
Hi 5wize, we were talking about nature, if memory serves, you opined that nature is all there is, and I asked how you knew that nature is all there is, and you answered, because you observed nature, and found out nature is all there is.

At this point I said that scientists know only a mere 4% of the universe, the remainder of 96% they are in the dark.

Now you are telling me that I cannot just jump over the 96% of the universe and declare that nature is not there but God is there.

Okay then, let us just talk about nature in just the 4% of the universe scientists know.

Scientists tell us that there was the Big Bang which is the start of the universe, and at that point in time and in space, there was no nature yet.

What about God, was He there already?

Of course God was and is present all the time and everywhere, because the Big Bang did not come from absolute nothingness.

And God ordered things so that nature eventually came into existnce, the nature where there are mountains and valleys and living things and entities like you and me.
Believing that what you say is true and recognizing that the knowledge of scientists is mediocre, it is only 4%, this mediocrity is because they only know what is apparent. In fact, the wisers know that the worlds were framed by the Word of God-the Word is GOD-, yeah, the Word is GOD, so that things which are seen-are apparent- were not made of things which do appear-maybe 96%. https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-word-is-god-great-mystery.2494/
 

5wize

Well-known member
Believing that what you say is true and recognizing that the knowledge of scientists is mediocre, it is only 4%, this mediocrity is because they only know what is apparent. In fact, the wisers know that the worlds were framed by the Word of God-the Word is GOD-, yeah, the Word is GOD, so that things which are seen-are apparent- were not made of things which do appear-maybe 96%. https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-word-is-god-great-mystery.2494/
The word of God is an assumption, not a mystery. It would be a mystery if we ever observed it work. We never observe it at work in any cause and effect observation, so to say some ancient religious whole cloth mental fabrication is an actual mystery skips a lot steps.

A mystery is something like the observation that the visible particles of a galaxy hold it together gravitationally.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Hi SteveB, you believe in the authority of the Bible, that is why you are citing verses in the Bible.
Why do you think that is?

Now I ask you, why do you believe in the authority of th Bible?
Experience with Jesus and the bible.
You will tell me, because the Bible is reliable.
Yep.
So I ask you, how do you know the Bible is realiable?
Experience with Jesus and God over the course of the past 45+ years.

And you will tell me, because there is authority in the Bible.
Nope.
Impressive jump off the frying pan and into the fire though.
Was that a triple lundy?

Jesus was quite clear that if we obey his teachings we will know for ourselves that he is from God, and then both he and God will come and make their home with us.

Having been married to my wife for the past 32 years, I've found that there is no way to mistake her reality.

In like manner, learning to be, and then being a follower of Jesus,I've learned over the course of the past 45 years that it's impossible to mistake His reality.

Jesus is inviting everyone to come and see for themselves. You included.

And as you appear that you can surmise the reality of God strictly by reason alone, I'll explain why it won't work for you.

According to Isaiah 40, vs 12, YHVH holds the entirety of the cosmos in the span of his hand.

According to recent research on this issue, the whole universe is upwards of 92 billion light years across, and they're not done investigating it. There are many scientists who believe that it's much larger.
Thankfully, the new James Webb space telescope was built to learn what is out at the edges.

So, if YHVH's span holds the entirety of the cosmos, just how large do you think that is?
My span is 9 inches. Pinky finger tip to thumb tip.

My height can be known using a span to measure it. So, using the same logic, by taking a span, applying it to the cosmos, and then calculating the height, YHVH is humongously humongous.

Then, in Isaiah 57 vs 15 we read that he inhabits eternity yet dwells with the humble and contrite people.

So, the question has to be asked.... just how do you think you can "reason through" God, when he speaks regarding himself as dwelling outside of time and space and being several times larger than the cosmos?
We then read at the end of Isaiah 40 that God is incomprehensible to us and we cannot fathom him.

So, unless YHVH makes himself knowable to us, we're like microbes trying to figure out what a water droplet is.

I encourage you to consider that as you try wrapping your mind around the infinite and eternal.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
No, I'm saying how do we know there was ever a "beginning". How do we know there hasn't always been something.
There always has been something....God the creator. A God that has always existed. There is the requirement for somwthing to have always existed if there is anything existing today....or will you be able to argue that from nothing something can self create...be and not be at the same time.
 
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