Hyper Calvinism defined

[Alexander the adequate]

Would a Provisionist be a Hyper Sola Fidest?

I have to admit, almost all my study has been directly from the Bible, so i am not familiar with the terms that categorize people. If you talk scripture, I am more likely to be able to engage, but I would have to look your terms up in order to answer your question. So perhaps you could phrase your questions in Biblical jargon. and then I can answer

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Then why doesn't God give that grace for salvation to all people?

This is an odd question, the poster quotes a verse that God has grace for salvation for all people, then you ask why He doesn't. Can you explain what you meant?

 

[Alexander the adequate]

All men = Jew and Gentile.

Are you implying that God desires salvation for someone but it's unable to do so without mans permission?

Do you consider that the moment Jesus rose from the dead, everyone He had died for was saved?

 

[ReverendRV]

I have to admit, almost all my study has been directly from the Bible, so i am not familiar with the terms that categorize people. If you talk scripture, I am more likely to be able to engage, but I would have to look your terms up in order to answer your question. So perhaps you could phrase your questions in Biblical jargon. and then I can answer

You're probably better off remaining directly in the Bible...

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Yep.


What is "foreknowledge?"

foreknowlege is the truth that is known before it takes place

 

[Howie]

So are you saying when God purposely and explicitly gave His Son for the sins of the whole world, tasting death/dying for everyone, that is not God's saving grace for salvation?

Yes. That is what I'm saying. Again, if God giving Jesus for sin is saving grace, and God has given that saving grace to everyone, then everyone should be saved, because, by definition, SAVING GRACE, SAVES.

I think what's in view in Titus 2:11 is the Gospel bringing the good news of salvation to all men. Men don't have the ability to come to God and understand the Gospel without God giving them that ability.

The Lord and His Apostles say differently, not me.

I don't think so.

You seem to pass it off as common grace such as rain. Perhaps I am taking your comment wrong.

Again, the manifesting of the Gospel is a grace, however, not everyone who hears the Gospel believes and is saved by its hearing; therefore, the hearing of the Gospel cannot be the saving grace needed to believe because saving grace saves everyone to whom it is given, and many hear the Gospel and don't believe.

I think the saving grace that saves is the ability to believe the Gospel (Eph 2:8ff, cf Php 1:29).

Here are the translations of Robert Young, the YLT translation, and Jay P Green, the LITV translation. Both are known for accuracy to the original text and meaning.

"For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men" (YLT)
"For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men" (LITV)

Thanks.

Whether or not you accept it does not change the fact that God's saving grace has been manifested/appeared to all men.

I disagree, and have explained why above.

The translation of the ESV, KJV, GNB, NKJV, NIV, NET, NASB, and etc all say the same thing, that God;s grace for salvation has appeared/manifested to all men.

In none of those is it stated that the grace is "saving grace."

There is zero doubt to the meaning of the text.

Our discussion proves otherwise

God's saving grace has appeared/manifested to all men. I believe the testimony of God on this one. Do you?

Not as you understand it, no, I don't.

You seem to think there is another grace besides God's giving of His Son. Perhaps you can provide scriptural evidence for such.

There must be. If, as you believe, the saving grace is the appearance of salvation, and that saving grace is given to everyone, then everyone should believe, because, by definition, saving grace is grace that saves, but we know not everyone is saved.

I explained that in the same paragraph: "As Jesus told Nicodemus, some people love the darkness/sin and refuse to come into the light/repent and believe and be reconciled to God."

Paul says NO ONE seeks God (Tom 3:11b), and Jesus confirms that in Jn 6:44. So everyone who believes must receive from God a "special" grace that those who never believe don't receive.

I think that grace is the ability to believe the Gospel.

I certainly cannot say it any better than the Lord did, "Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be plainly evident that his deeds have been done in God." (Joh 3:19-21)

Again, Paul says NO ONE seeks God, and Jesus confirms that (Rom 3:11b; Jn 6:44).

Continuing, the issue is, why do some men believe, while other men don't believe, when all men are made "from the same lump" of clay?

The reason why men don't believe is because they love sin. It doesn't get any easier than that. The fault of their damnation is not upon God for not showing them saving grace for we know that He has. The fault of anyone's damnation is their love for sin instead of doing what God wants.

Again, by definition, "saving grace" is grace that saves. If God has given everyone saving grace, then everyone should believe, but they don't

Perhaps you could share the passages of the bible that refer to the grace that you are referencing.

All of those referencing Election. I saw where you said read MacArthur and others so you know the passages to which I'm referring.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Yes. That is what I'm saying. Again, if God giving Jesus for sin is saving grace, and God has given that saving grace to everyone, then everyone should be saved, because, by definition, SAVING GRACE, SAVES.

I think what's in view in Titus 2:11 is the Gospel bringing the good news of salvation to all men. Men don't have the ability to come to God and understand the Gospel without God giving them that ability.


I don't think so.


Again, the manifesting of the Gospel is a grace, however, not everyone who hears the Gospel believes and is saved by its hearing; therefore, the hearing of the Gospel cannot be the saving grace needed to believe because saving grace saves everyone to whom it is given, and many hear the Gospel and don't believe.

I think the saving grace that saves is the ability to believe the Gospel (Eph 2:8ff, cf Php 1:29).


Thanks.



I disagree, and have explained why above.


In none of those is it stated that the grace is "saving grace."


Our discussion proves otherwise

Not as you understand it, no, I don't.


There must be. If, as you believe, the saving grace is the appearance of salvation, and that saving grace is given to everyone, then everyone should believe, because, by definition, saving grace is grace that saves, but we know not everyone is saved.


Paul says NO ONE seeks God (Tom 3:11b), and Jesus confirms that in Jn 6:44. So everyone who believes must receive from God. a "special" grace that those who never believe don't receive.

I think that grace is the ability to believe the Gospel.


Again, Paul says NO ONE seeks God, and Jesus confirms that (Rom 3:11b; Jn 6:44).

Continuing, the issue is, why do some men believe, while other men don't believe, when all men are made "from the same lump" of clay?


Again, by definition, "saving grace" is grace that saves. If God gives everyone saving grace, then everyone should believe, but they don't


All of those referencing Election. I saw where you said read MacArthur and others so you know the passages to ehich I'm referring.

you specify "saving grace" but other than in the Living Bible, I don't see that stated anywhere. what does the phrase mean to you?
Grace does not save. Grace does not DO anything. Grace means freely in that context, and means we are freely saved.

 

[fltom]

Would a Provisionist be a Hyper Sola Fidest?

No

 

[Reformedguy]

I believe He does and if they would repent and believe as He commanded He would save them.

Does love them enough to actually save them unconditionally?

 

[fltom]

Does love them enough to actually save them unconditionally?

God does not save men unconditionally

He saves those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Reformedguy]

God does not save men unconditionally

He saves those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Right, so He does not love them enough to save them unconditionally.

 

[fltom]

Right, so He does not love them enough to save them unconditionally.

He saves no one unconditionally
It would be an affront to his righteousness

Romans 3:25–26 (KJV 1900) — 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Reformedguy]

He saves no one unconditionally
It would be an affront to his righteousness

Romans 3:25–26 (KJV 1900) — 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Right, so He does not love them enough to save them unconditionally. I will save you from the burning house only if you do this. Otherwise burn to death. Gotcha

 

[fltom]

Right, so He does not love them enough to save them unconditionally. I will save you from the burning house only if you do this. Otherwise burn to death. Gotcha

You got got nothing

The issues were a universal saving will and a universalsal love

neither require he save anyone apart from a voluntary inion with Christ

 

[Reformedguy]

You got got nothing

The issues were a universal saving will and a universalsal love

neither require he save anyone apart from a voluntary inion with Christ

Right, so He does not love them enough to save them unconditionally. His love is conditional

 

[eternomade]

God provided the grace and expects men to do their part which is believe in Him and do their part as He commanded. Show me from scripture any verse that says God believes for us, repents for us, and or His faith is imputed to believers. The only thing I see in scripture when we are saved is that Jesus imputes His righteousness to us who believe and repent.

You believe that faith and repentance are conditions that man must meet in order to be saved. I believe faith and repentance are fruits of being saved.

Do you believe that baptism is a condition that man must fulfill in order to be saved?

Also, I do not believe what you are accusing me of. I don't believe that God repentance or believes for us. I believe in triple IMPUTATION.

1. Adams sin to all mankind when he sinned.
2. The sin of the elect to Christ at the cross.
3. The righteousness of God to the elect at the cross.

 

[eternomade]

I would say that I believe Unconditional Election is true, but it's not a Lottery. The reason it's not a Lottery is because we're Justified through our Faith Alone in Christ Alone. No one is Justified through Election Alone; that IS Hyper...

Unconditional Election is not a Sola...

I don't believe we are justified through election but rather the faithfulness and blood of Christ.

 

[eternomade]

Nope I am stating that God’s offer based on scripture is to everyone but not everyone will believe.

There is no offer of Salvation to anyone.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 1:21 KJV

God's people are believers but this is not what justifies them. God's people are justified by the blood of Christ.

 

[eternomade]

Election is true. It is also true that the offer of salvation is genuine, and it is made to everyone.

Judas was offered salvation? Was Esau offered it? Hebrews implies that Esau sought repentance with tears but God hated him and left him in his sin.

 

[eternomade]

If God elected you why would you need your OWN belief in Him ? If God elected you why would you feel the need to obey Him the deal( (salvation) is done without any input from you. God commanded men to believe and repent if your elected with no belief or repentance from you would that undue God electing you? Scripture says God increases the faith of those that believe.

How would you know what Jesus did for you on the cross without being granted faith to believe?