Is anyone interested in Wed. 3/20/2024 Open Discussion?

Ppl have the wrong view of election and predestination. They think that if God purposefully leaves some to their justly condemned state while saving others, He is being unfair, unloving. That cannot be further from the truth. The question that should be asked is not "Why does God only save some?" but "Why does God save any?" If God is truly being "fair", then all would die lost.
I don’t think God is unfair. God is more than fair. Since I came to learn rather than debate. Thanks for sharing the reformed perspective.

Do reformed believers ever discuss why they think some are left in their unsaved state?

How does reformed theology deal with the statements that indicate God wishes all to be saved? Thanks.
 
Well, now I think we see why nobody wants to bother answering your questions. He answered your question thoughtfully and respectfully.
Perspective is a strange thing. But from my perspective people guessing my motives is a form of judgement.

Guessing that I simply don’t like the answers implied that I did not come to this forum to discover what reformed believers really believe. This is untrue and it was uncalled for. But human nature being what it is, it was to be expected from some.

At any rate this is not a rabbit hole I wish to explore any further.
 
Reformed theology does not teach free will but a will that freely chooses within the confines of that person's nature. Just like a prisoner inside a 9' x 12' jail cell. That person can freely move in the confines of that cell, but cannot of their own choosing, get beyond the confines of those prison bars. A person is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, which is exactly what Paul taught in Romans 6:16ff.
Yes, I agree with all God revealed through Paul. I can’t claim to fully understand all of it yet.
 
Here is the thing, all of His creation is His, but only the saved are His children. We view children way differently than God does. Proof? You got it.

And Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”[1 Samuel 15:1-3]

Then in Joshua 6, only Rahab and her immediately family were spared from destruction. Same with Ai, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir, et al. So God does not see babies, infants, toddlers, as innocent in His sight.
I do not draw the same conclusion as you do over texts like these but since debate is not my purpose, I thank you for the reformed perspective.
 
And who was 1 Corinthians written to?

If you read a love letter that a soldier wrote to his wife during WW II, and in the letter he says, "I love you, dear", do you suppose that it means he loves YOU, simply because you read the letter?
Thanks for the reformed perspective.
 
It say Christ is the Saviour of all men.

Why would the Bible call Him the Saviour of all men if that obviously is not true. Could Adolph Hitler had called Christ his Saviour, even now?
Again, how can Christ be the Savior of all men if all men are not saved? That would be like me coming upon 50 drowning after their ship sank. I jump in and save 5 and then say I saved all of them. Yet, only five were saved.
I agree here, yet with this clarification for others; We are not denying the text, or that Christ is Savior of all men. What we are getting at is not only what the text says, but what it means.
 
Um, EVERY Christian believes that "sin is a choice".
Why is this such a foreign concept to you?
Reformed theology is very cloudy on this issue. I hear what you are saying but it is at odds with what other reformed believers teach. According to reformed theology can an unborn again person choose to stop sinning?
 
Reformed theology is very cloudy on this issue.
Lol Nick, for a guy who is here "only to learn what Reformed Theology teaches" you give yourself away, little by little.

Your straw man and libel are bleeding through, more and more.
I hear what you are saying but it is at odds with what other reformed believers teach.
More baloney.
According to reformed theology can an unborn again person choose to stop sinning?
More straw.
 
It does not conform to common sense. No offense
To criticize another's attempts at exposition is not credible if you refuse any attempt yourself. A debating technique that relies solely on criticism is perverse. Are you here to engage in debate, or are you just here to criticize other people?
 
He literally said "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."[John 10:26] And then you went on a tangent to prove He said otherwise.
I made sense of what Jesus was saying without imputing some esoteric deterministic point, as to which determinism, you are unhealthily preoccupied with, to the exclusion of other senses which may be intended. And my sense was a credible sense, given Jesus's teaching on the Pharisees and his reference to their father being the devil.
 
To criticize another's attempts at exposition is not credible if you refuse any attempt yourself. A debating technique that relies solely on criticism is perverse. Are you here to engage in debate, or are you just here to criticize other people?
Attempts at exposition?

My point is the text cannot logically mean what you claim it means. I have no burden of proof in this debate. It's your claim and the burden of proof lies with the affirmative side. That's how debate works.

So I ask again, how is Christ the Saviour of the whole world yet the whole world is not saved?

Credit goes to SovereignGrace for asking initially.
 
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I made sense of what Jesus was saying without imputing some esoteric deterministic point, as to which determinism, you are unhealthily preoccupied with, to the exclusion of other senses which may be intended. And my sense was a credible sense, given Jesus's teaching on the Pharisees and his reference to their father being the devil.
I told you what John 10:26 says without any bent one way of the other. Look at vss 26-28:

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.[John 10:26-28]

1) Those who could not believe are those who are not His sheep
2) His sheep hear His voice
3) He knows them
4) They follow Him
5) He gives them eternal life
6) They are securely in His hands

There is exclusivity going on here.
 
Do reformed believers ever discuss why they think some are left in their unsaved state?
Or said differently, why they remain "in Adam".

Yes we do, they're not elect.
How does reformed theology deal with the statements that indicate God wishes all to be saved? Thanks.
"There's no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, the same Lord is Lord over ALL."

"All" doesn't refer to every single person, it refers to GROUPS of people other than Jews.
The new covenant applies to all groups, not just Jews.
 
Perspective is a strange thing. But from my perspective people guessing my motives is a form of judgement.

Guessing that I simply don’t like the answers implied that I did not come to this forum to discover what reformed believers really believe. This is untrue and it was uncalled for. But human nature being what it is, it was to be expected from some.

At any rate this is not a rabbit hole I wish to explore any further.
He took the time to give you a thoughtful answer. edit per mod
 
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Do reformed believers ever discuss why they think some are left in their unsaved state?

Why would we need to "discuss" it?
God has answered that question very clearly in Scripture:

Rom. 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

- to show his warth.
- make known is power;
- demonstrated his patience;
- make known the riches of his glory;

How does reformed theology deal with the statements that indicate God wishes all to be saved?

That's a good question. The answer is that non-Calvinists ignore the context, often (IMO) because they don't know how to properly understanding passages in context, having seen so much modelling of "proof-texting" by quoting a half-verse or single-verse while ignoring the surrounding context.

I will quote three of the commonly-used proof-texts:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

In "God so loved the world", the word, "so" doesn't mean, "so much" (although you could argue based on other passages how great God's love is).

"So" in this context means "in this particular manner". You can confirm this for yourself by comparing other translations (HCSB, ISV, Mounce, NET, NLT, Voice), or how the same Greek term is translated in other passages (eg. Matt. 1:18, 6:9, 17:12, Mark 2:12, Luke 15:7, etc. etc.). It is frequently translated in the KJV as "thus", and that would be a better rendering in John 3:16.

So in John 3:16, John is explaining "how" God is showing his love for "the world". He is showing His love "in this manner", "in this way":

"that whosoever believeth shall not perish,
but have everlasting life."​

So the specificity of John 3:16 is that God saves "believers". He doesn't save "everyone", He only saves "believers". Preaches like to shout out, "whosoever!", but that's not the whole phrase, it is, "whosoever BELIEVETH", or more precisely, "every believing one".

"World" here does not mean, "every single individual" (a common misinterpretation), but it simply means, not only Jews, but Gentiles are included as well. It is an EXTENSION of one people group to include all other people groups, while not necessarily guaranteeing every "individual" within each groupo being among believers.

Now, this may sound like a LOT of argumentation to explain a single verse, and that's understandable, but it's only because we need to unpack all the baggage that non-Calvinists have added over the years.

2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

When non-Calvinists quote this verse, they never quote v.8, and they ignore the "us-ward" in v.9, both of which LIMIT the context, and preclude this from being a "universal" context.

At the beginning of the chapter, Peter is responding to Christians asking what they should do with the mockers and scoffers who suggest that Jesus is not coming. This is why Peter answers by saying, "a day is as a thousand years" (v.8), basically saying that it might seem like a long time for us, but it's not a long time for God. But God is not wishing ANY (of his beloved) to perish, and that is the reason for Christ's delay. If Christ had come in the first century, then many of His elect (you, me, Cooked Goose, SovereignGrace, etc.) would have been out of luck. We are all part of God's beloved, and so Christ has delayed His second coming until we have all come to Christ. And if Christ delays longer, it is only because there are more elect whom He is waiting for. There is a clear "us/them" distinction here, the "them" is being discussed in 3:1-5, while "us-ward" is being discussed in vv. 8-9. It is not "universal".

1Tim. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Non-Calvinists love to quote verse 4 only, and ignore the rest of the passage, "who will have all men to be saved". So what does "all men" mean? They simply ASSUME that "all men" means, "every single individual", but that begs the question.

Paul uses the same phrase, "all men" in verse 1, and in that instance it refers to GROUPS of men ("kings", "those in authority", etc.). Paul demonstrated that he (and those around him) that the standard thinking is in "groups", not "individuals" ("rich", 'poor", "bond", "free", "male", "female", "Jew", Gentile"). Over and over again, the traditional understanding is that "salvation is of the Jews", but part of the gospel message is that salvation is extended to Gentiles as well, or "all men". To assume "all men" as 'all individuals" creates all kinds of problems, relating to doubts of God's actual will, His omnipotence, His omnscience, why does He not have the power to achieve His will, why does He allegedly "want" something that He already knows (through His omniscience) will never happen, etc. etc.
 
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