Jesus and God aren’t the same person

[Runningman]

The below verses explicitly identify that God is the Father and Jesus is not. Therefore there is never a time that Jesus God.

2 Corinthians 11
31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1 Peter 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Too many examples to list, but it was standard theology and belief among all of Jesus’ disciples that Jesus is not God. Not a single one of them believed that.

Thomas didn’t believe Jesus is God; Jesus never taught Thomas that. Thomas was just in shock and surprised saying “my god” because Jesus had holes in his hands. Thomas never recovered from being a doubter, even to this day, as his reputation precedes him. Don’t base your theology off misunderstanding what is being said.

The Bible is free from contradiction. Therefore since the Father is the God of Jesus there is never a time that Jesus is God.

The only true God is the Father like Jesus said. If you don’t follow Christ’s beliefs about his God you can’t be a follower of Jesus and you can’t be a real Christian.

John 17
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Gary Mac]

The below verses explicitly identify that God is the Father and Jesus is not. Therefore there is never a time that Jesus God.

2 Corinthians 11
31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1 Peter 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Too many examples to list, but it was standard theology and belief among all of Jesus’ disciples that Jesus is not God. Not a single one of them believed that.

Thomas didn’t believe Jesus is God; Jesus never taught Thomas that. Thomas was just in shock and surprised saying “my god” because Jesus had holes in his hands. Thomas never recovered from being a doubter, even to this day, as his reputation precedes him. Don’t base your theology off misunderstanding what is being said.

The Bible is free from contradiction. Therefore since the Father is the God of Jesus there is never a time that Jesus is God.

The only true God is the Father like Jesus said. If you don’t follow Christ’s beliefs about his God you can’t be a follower of Jesus and you can’t be a real Christian.

John 17
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Amen. Jesus was a man of flesh as you and I. God is a Spirit and makes His abode in all men who will let Him in. Rev 3:21.

 

[puddleglum]

Both of you seem to be overlooking John 1:1.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus was a member of the Trinity. Each member is God. This is why Jesus could be God and still speak of another God. There is a sense in which it is true that Jesus and God are not the same person. And yet Jesus, as well as the Father, is God.

 

[jamesh]

Amen. Jesus was a man of flesh as you and I. God is a Spirit and makes His abode in all men who will let Him in. Rev 3:21.

This is Sunday School stuff that a 10-12 year old can understand. Why did you leave out Revelation 3:20? "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone HEARS MY VOICE and open the door; I WILL COME IN TO HIM, AND WILL DINE WITH HIM, AND HE WITH ME." Explain how a created man like Jesus Christ can come into other men and dine with Him?

Also, at Revelation 3:21, why does Jesus say that He is sitting on HIS THRONE? I thought you guys teach that it is God the Father's throne? And, to make matters even worse for you, look at John 14:23, "If anyone loves Me he will keep MY WORD; (I thought it was always God the Father's word?) and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and MAKE OUR ABODE WITH HIM." Btw, Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons but one and the same GOD.

So again, how can a created man like Jesus able to live in other human beings? You guys are "walking contradictions."

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[cjab]

Both of you seem to be overlooking John 1:1.



Jesus was a member of the Trinity. Each member is God. This is why Jesus could be God and still speak of another God. There is a sense in which it is true that Jesus and God are not the same person. And yet Jesus, as well as the Father, is God.

There is no "being a member of the Trinity" in the bible. The Trinity, if it extends further than the three witnesses in 1 John 5:8, or in Matt 28:19, is a philosophical construct that never otherwise appears in the bible as a trinity of co-equal entities. Even in divinity, equality can be displaced by hierachy.

'Tis true that the ascended Christ, as the Logos, has the 'form of God' Phil 2:6, (Greek μορφή) but that doesn't infer that he bears the title of God in the same way as the Father does, any more than man being in the image of God carries any claim to the title "God." God is unique and monadic.

But sometimes the lesser label (anarthrous) "God" (non-titular), or "my God", or "someone's God", is extended in the OT to men with God's authority, and to Jesus especially, (cf, John 10:34-36, John 20:28 etc), even to the exalted Christ which describes his role, authority and power over both men and creation etc, that derive from the Father giving all things to the Son.

But it is clear that the unique title "God" without qualification does by right relate to the very top of the divine hierarchy, even the Father himself who is "true God" John 17:3 or "God over all" Rom 9:5.

 

[Our Lord's God]

The below verses explicitly identify that God is the Father and Jesus is not. Therefore there is never a time that Jesus God.

2 Corinthians 11
31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1 Peter 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Too many examples to list, but it was standard theology and belief among all of Jesus’ disciples that Jesus is not God. Not a single one of them believed that.

That's correct. The God of Jesus was not Jesus but someone else.

Thomas didn’t believe Jesus is God; Jesus never taught Thomas that. Thomas was just in shock and surprised saying “my god” because Jesus had holes in his hands. Thomas never recovered from being a doubter, even to this day, as his reputation precedes him. Don’t base your theology off misunderstanding what is being said.

Thomas was confessing exactly what Jesus had taught him, "He who has seen ME has seen the FATHER." Thomas wouldn't believe Jesus was alive unless he saw him for himself and he also wouldn't accept any imposters and needed to see his wounds. There was only one single person in the entire world who could say "He who has seen ME has seen the FATHER." Thomas' words to Jesus illustrate that he really believed it was in fact Jesus alive and well standing before him.

According to Jesus at John 14:9, WHO did Thomas see at John 20:27?

The Bible is free from contradiction. Therefore since the Father is the God of Jesus there is never a time that Jesus is God.

The only true God is the Father like Jesus said. If you don’t follow Christ’s beliefs about his God you can’t be a follower of Jesus and you can’t be a real Christian.

John 17
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Since there is only one God, and the God of Jesus is that God, there is no God but the God of Jesus. The only God is his God and there is no other.

And for honest rational minds that is an inescapable fact.

 

[Gary Mac]

Both of you seem to be overlooking John 1:1.

The reason it seems to be with you is, His word is in the beginning of every mans salvation. His word is not written on stone nor a page of paper but in the hearts and mind os those who has received God same disposition of mind. His word come to life in us and it flows out from all who has His same Spirit of mind. We speak as He Speaks.

You dont understand what His word is do you? You think it is a book.

Jesus was a member of the Trinity.

No' Jesus was a son of God just as all are who has received from God that what Jesus did in Matt 3:16 that obviously you deny in yourself.

Red Matt 3:16 and what does it say? Dont it say that God Himself came to Jesus and what happened? DI not God open up in Jesus who He is and all of His heaven in Jesus by what? Is it not by the Spirit God is?

The reason you cling to a trinity doctrine is so you won't be accountable to recieve the same from God as Jesus did, As Adam did, as Abraham did, as Moses did, as Mary did, as Jesus did, as 120 did, and others we read of who God came to them by the Spirit He is and what happened in all of these?

You dont know do you from lack in receiving the same from God all of these did.

Each member is God.

His children are member of our Fathers family and are exactly like our Father who is God create in His same spiritual image. He is a Spirit and we who are His children worship Him in Spirit, but because you have a trinity doctrine that you cannot relate to at all in yourself, are sin the outside of His family.

Most are like Paul trying to adopt yourselves by law into His family instead of being born again of God as Jesus was in Matt 3:16.

This is why Jesus could be God and still speak of another God.

Many has made made a man a god instead of the GHos who made Jesus in His same image just as He does us all who has received from Him that what Jesus did in Matt 3:16.

This is what Jesus Said of his God who sent him and he wasn't God as you falsely accuse him of just as the Jews did in his day.
Read it, and try and understand what Jesus is trying to tell you, but you won't listen to him will you?

Heck, some here has falsely accused me of being God for the very same reason as those did of Jesus and still do today from lack in recieve the same from God as Jesus did in Matt 3:16 as God pouts in all men who will recieve Him instead of their own dictation for who they think He may be.

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

 

[Theo1689]

The below verses explicitly identify that God is the Father and Jesus is not. Therefore there is never a time that Jesus God.

Sometimes I have to wonder why you are here.
Sometimes I have to wonder why MOST people are here.
Because you, like they, seem to do nothing but "throw" verses at each other. You ignore their verses. You think they ignore your verses.

So why are you even here? Part of me thinks that you are doing some "divine bliessing" by repeating your proof-texts ten million times.

Part of me thinks that you are so afraid of admitting that there is any merit in those who who disagree with you, that you think you are then, "losing ground". I don't know.

Sometimes I simply want to ask you what Biblical proof you would need to accept that Jesus is in fact deity(*). My guess is that you will say there is nothing that God could reveal to prove that Jesus is deity, since you would think that would contradict Scripture. So that's a problem.

(You will note that in this context of discussion, I prefer to say "Jesus is deity", rather than "Jesus is God", since many people of your persuasion equate "God" with the "Father", as if it were another name for the Father. It is not. "The Father" is WHO He is, "God" is WHAT He is." I have brought this up before, but I believe you simply mock it, as if it were some denial of the person of God.)​

The below verses explicitly identify that God is the Father and Jesus is not. Therefore there is never a time that Jesus God.

But here is the problem that you have with all your "proof-texts".

1) NONE of your proof-texts say, "God is the Father", to the exclusion of anyone else. If God was exclusively "the Father" and nobody else, there would be no need to SAY "God the Father", since that would be unnecessarily redundant. It would be sufficient to simply say, "God". The fact that Scripture repeatedly refers to "God the Father" suggests that Paul and Peter had to SPECIFY who (within God) was being referred to.​

2) You say, "and Jesus is not". And your statement is ambiguous, with two different meanings, so I will address them both.​

a) "And Jesus is not [the Father]". We agree, Jesus is not the Father. We're not Unitarians, and we're not modalists. The Father spoke to the Son, the Son prayed to the Father. Jesus did not pray to Himself. I'm glad we got that sorted out.​

b) "And Jesus is not [god/deity]". Sorry, none of your proof-texts says, "Jesus is not God". This is an ASSUMPTION that you are making, it is not explicitly found in Scripture. You need to recognize that and acknowledge that.​

3) I think the reason you ASSUME unitarianism (one person per God) is because that's the only example we have. Mankind is unitarian, we have only one person per being. But that doesn't mean that God is the same way. I believe it is reasonable to lean to that assumption, except that (IMO) it ignores. the many "Jesus is deity" passages.​

​

4) I really don't understandhow you can deny all the passages which teach the deitiy of Christ, as they seem to be very straightforward and explicit.​

Isa. 9:6 ... And [the child] shall be called, ... Mighty God.."
John 1:1 ... And the word was God.​

John 20:28 ... And Thomas said to [Jesus], ... my God."​

Acts 20:28 ... Church of God .... [God's] own blood".​

Phil. 2:5-6 ... Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God ..."​

Col. 2:9 ... the fullness of the godhead bodily...​

Tit. 2:13 ... "our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ".​

Heb. 1:8 ... of the Son, He says, "thy throne, O God..."​

2 Pet. 1:1 ... the righteousness of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ"​

These are by no means all that passages which teach the deity of Christ, but they are the clearest, IMO.​

If you truly believe that Jesus is not deity, then it might behoove you to ponder as to why there seem to be SO MANY passages which (in your view) mislead people into thinking Jesus is God, when in fact (you believe) He's not.​

5) If you think it matters at all, you might want to do some study of the ECF's, to see how they (being influenced by both Scripture and the original apostles or their disciples) considered Christ as "God". You might also want to ponder (and perhaps try to explain to us why you think 99.99% of all Christians over the past 2000 years are so idiotic and moronic to not be able to understand Scripture as well as you think you do.​

​

6) And finally, if you have any interest in moving discussion forward, you might consider trying to exegete all those passages which (seem to) teach the deity of Christ. Why is "God" associated so frequently with Jesus, if He is not truly God?​

2 Corinthians 11
31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

One final point... In 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul equates the Sh'ma to including both the Father and the Son:

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD​

​

1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.​

The Father is both Lord and God.
The Son is both Lord and God.

But to distinguish between the two persons of the godhead, He developed a convention of referring to the Father as "God" (without denying His lordship, Matt. 11:25, Luke 10:21), and referring to the Son as "Lord" (without denying His deity, Phil. 2:5-6, Col. 2:9, Tit. 2:13)

 

[cjab]

The Father is both Lord and God.
The Son is both Lord and God.

But to distinguish between the two persons of the godhead, He developed a convention of referring to the Father as "God" (without denying His lordship, Matt. 11:25, Luke 10:21), and referring to the Son as "Lord" (without denying His deity, Phil. 2:5-6, Col. 2:9, Tit. 2:13)

Completely untrue. Paul developed no such conventions, but obeyed the teaching of the other apostles and of Christ.

 

[jamesh]

Sometimes I have to wonder why you are here.
Sometimes I have to wonder why MOST people are here.
Because you, like they, seem to do nothing but "throw" verses at each other. You ignore their verses. You think they ignore your verses.

So why are you even here? Part of me thinks that you are doing some "divine bliessing" by repeating your proof-texts ten million times.

Part of me thinks that you are so afraid of admitting that there is any merit in those who who disagree with you, that you think you are then, "losing ground". I don't know.

Sometimes I simply want to ask you what Biblical proof you would need to accept that Jesus is in fact deity(*). My guess is that you will say there is nothing that God could reveal to prove that Jesus is deity, since you would think that would contradict Scripture. So that's a problem.

(You will note that in this context of discussion, I prefer to say "Jesus is deity", rather than "Jesus is God", since many people of your persuasion equate "God" with the "Father", as if it were another name for the Father. It is not. "The Father" is WHO He is, "God" is WHAT He is." I have brought this up before, but I believe you simply mock it, as if it were some denial of the person of God.)​

But here is the problem that you have with all your "proof-texts".

1) NONE of your proof-texts say, "God is the Father", to the exclusion of anyone else. If God was exclusively "the Father" and nobody else, there would be no need to SAY "God the Father", since that would be unnecessarily redundant. It would be sufficient to simply say, "God". The fact that Scripture repeatedly refers to "God the Father" suggests that Paul and Peter had to SPECIFY who (within God) was being referred to.​

2) You say, "and Jesus is not". And your statement is ambiguous, with two different meanings, so I will address them both.​

a) "And Jesus is not [the Father]". We agree, Jesus is not the Father. We're not Unitarians, and we're not modalists. The Father spoke to the Son, the Son prayed to the Father. Jesus did not pray to Himself. I'm glad we got that sorted out.​

b) "And Jesus is not [god/deity]". Sorry, none of your proof-texts says, "Jesus is not God". This is an ASSUMPTION that you are making, it is not explicitly found in Scripture. You need to recognize that and acknowledge that.​

3) I think the reason you ASSUME unitarianism (one person per God) is because that's the only example we have. Mankind is unitarian, we have only one person per being. But that doesn't mean that God is the same way. I believe it is reasonable to lean to that assumption, except that (IMO) it ignores. the many "Jesus is deity" passages.​

​

4) I really don't understandhow you can deny all the passages which teach the deitiy of Christ, as they seem to be very straightforward and explicit.​

Isa. 9:6 ... And [the child] shall be called, ... Mighty God.."​

John 1:1 ... And the word was God.​

John 20:28 ... And Thomas said to [Jesus], ... my God."​

Acts 20:28 ... Church of God .... [God's] own blood".​

Phil. 2:5-6 ... Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God ..."​

Col. 2:9 ... the fullness of the godhead bodily...​

Tit. 2:13 ... "our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ".​

Heb. 1:8 ... of the Son, He says, "thy throne, O God..."​

2 Pet. 1:1 ... the righteousness of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ"​

These are by no means all that passages which teach the deity of Christ, but they are the clearest, IMO.​

If you truly believe that Jesus is not deity, then it might behoove you to ponder as to why there seem to be SO MANY passages which (in your view) mislead people into thinking Jesus is God, when in fact (you believe) He's not.​

5) If you think it matters at all, you might want to do some study of the ECF's, to see how they (being influenced by both Scripture and the original apostles or their disciples) considered Christ as "God". You might also want to ponder (and perhaps try to explain to us why you think 99.99% of all Christians over the past 2000 years are so idiotic and moronic to not be able to understand Scripture as well as you think you do.​

​

6) And finally, if you have any interest in moving discussion forward, you might consider trying to exegete all those passages which (seem to) teach the deity of Christ. Why is "God" associated so frequently with Jesus, if He is not truly God?​

One final point... In 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul equates the Sh'ma to including both the Father and the Son:

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD​

​

1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.​

The Father is both Lord and God.
The Son is both Lord and God.

But to distinguish between the two persons of the godhead, He developed a convention of referring to the Father as "God" (without denying His lordship, Matt. 11:25, Luke 10:21), and referring to the Son as "Lord" (without denying His deity, Phil. 2:5-6, Col. 2:9, Tit. 2:13)

Excellent points. I've said basically the same thing for years now and it just falls on "deaf" ears. That is they keep trying to make "the Father" the ONLY reference to "God", when it is a term clearly employed throughout the New Testament to distinguish the Father in His "God-ness" from the Son is HIS same "God-ness" and the Spirit from his self-same "God-ness. If the Father alone is God, there would be no need to distinguish him as "the Father" and one would ONLY see the same continued metaphorical applications of that term.

But you don't: God is NEVER ONCE identified as "the Father" in the Old Testament (other than in a collective and metaphorical sense). For example, Malachi 2:10, "Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us?" Or Isaiah 63:16, Isaiah 64:8; or Jeremiah 3:19. In short, God is "Father to all men because he created the world or he fathered the world. So again, why bother making the distinction if there is no distinction to be made? Keep up the good work. And "PS:" for those why deny what I just said. Did you notice that the Son is also identified as the creator at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-18 and Revelation 3:14.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Our Lord's God]

Excellent points. I've said basically the same thing for years now and it just falls on "deaf" ears. That is they keep trying to make "the Father" the ONLY reference to "God", when it is a term clearly employed throughout the New Testament to distinguish the Father in His "God-ness" from the Son is HIS same "God-ness" and the Spirit from his self-same "God-ness. If the Father alone is God, there would be no need to distinguish him as "the Father" and one would ONLY see the same continued metaphorical applications of that term.

Thus says the Lord, “Israel is My son, My firstborn.' So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’
Exodus 4:22-23

When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. Hosea 11:1

That might have something to do with it.

 

[Runningman]

Sometimes I have to wonder why you are here.
Sometimes I have to wonder why MOST people are here.
Because you, like they, seem to do nothing but "throw" verses at each other. You ignore their verses. You think they ignore your verses.

So why are you even here? Part of me thinks that you are doing some "divine bliessing" by repeating your proof-texts ten million times.

Part of me thinks that you are so afraid of admitting that there is any merit in those who who disagree with you, that you think you are then, "losing ground". I don't know.

Sometimes I simply want to ask you what Biblical proof you would need to accept that Jesus is in fact deity(*). My guess is that you will say there is nothing that God could reveal to prove that Jesus is deity, since you would think that would contradict Scripture. So that's a problem.

(You will note that in this context of discussion, I prefer to say "Jesus is deity", rather than "Jesus is God", since many people of your persuasion equate "God" with the "Father", as if it were another name for the Father. It is not. "The Father" is WHO He is, "God" is WHAT He is." I have brought this up before, but I believe you simply mock it, as if it were some denial of the person of God.)​

But here is the problem that you have with all your "proof-texts".

1) NONE of your proof-texts say, "God is the Father", to the exclusion of anyone else. If God was exclusively "the Father" and nobody else, there would be no need to SAY "God the Father", since that would be unnecessarily redundant. It would be sufficient to simply say, "God". The fact that Scripture repeatedly refers to "God the Father" suggests that Paul and Peter had to SPECIFY who (within God) was being referred to.​

2) You say, "and Jesus is not". And your statement is ambiguous, with two different meanings, so I will address them both.​

a) "And Jesus is not [the Father]". We agree, Jesus is not the Father. We're not Unitarians, and we're not modalists. The Father spoke to the Son, the Son prayed to the Father. Jesus did not pray to Himself. I'm glad we got that sorted out.​

b) "And Jesus is not [god/deity]". Sorry, none of your proof-texts says, "Jesus is not God". This is an ASSUMPTION that you are making, it is not explicitly found in Scripture. You need to recognize that and acknowledge that.​

3) I think the reason you ASSUME unitarianism (one person per God) is because that's the only example we have. Mankind is unitarian, we have only one person per being. But that doesn't mean that God is the same way. I believe it is reasonable to lean to that assumption, except that (IMO) it ignores. the many "Jesus is deity" passages.​

​

4) I really don't understandhow you can deny all the passages which teach the deitiy of Christ, as they seem to be very straightforward and explicit.​

Isa. 9:6 ... And [the child] shall be called, ... Mighty God.."​

John 1:1 ... And the word was God.​

John 20:28 ... And Thomas said to [Jesus], ... my God."​

Acts 20:28 ... Church of God .... [God's] own blood".​

Phil. 2:5-6 ... Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God ..."​

Col. 2:9 ... the fullness of the godhead bodily...​

Tit. 2:13 ... "our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ".​

Heb. 1:8 ... of the Son, He says, "thy throne, O God..."​

2 Pet. 1:1 ... the righteousness of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ"​

These are by no means all that passages which teach the deity of Christ, but they are the clearest, IMO.​

If you truly believe that Jesus is not deity, then it might behoove you to ponder as to why there seem to be SO MANY passages which (in your view) mislead people into thinking Jesus is God, when in fact (you believe) He's not.​

5) If you think it matters at all, you might want to do some study of the ECF's, to see how they (being influenced by both Scripture and the original apostles or their disciples) considered Christ as "God". You might also want to ponder (and perhaps try to explain to us why you think 99.99% of all Christians over the past 2000 years are so idiotic and moronic to not be able to understand Scripture as well as you think you do.​

​

6) And finally, if you have any interest in moving discussion forward, you might consider trying to exegete all those passages which (seem to) teach the deity of Christ. Why is "God" associated so frequently with Jesus, if He is not truly God?​

One final point... In 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul equates the Sh'ma to including both the Father and the Son:

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD​

​

1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.​

The Father is both Lord and God.
The Son is both Lord and God.

But to distinguish between the two persons of the godhead, He developed a convention of referring to the Father as "God" (without denying His lordship, Matt. 11:25, Luke 10:21), and referring to the Son as "Lord" (without denying His deity, Phil. 2:5-6, Col. 2:9, Tit. 2:13)

Sometimes I wonder why you’re here as well. I suspect it’s because you think you’re doing a service to God but I have no doubt He detests your open practice of idolatry. You were never commanded to make Jesus God or worship him as God. You don’t have any confessions by Jesus or anyone else on the Bible that Jesus is God. You don’t have be any examples of Jesus preexisting. No examples of him in the Old Testament talking or doing anything. Why are you here. What’s your purpose.

Do you believe what Jesus believes about himself and God? Yea or no

 

[Runningman]

That's correct. The God of Jesus was not Jesus but someone else.



Thomas was confessing exactly what Jesus had taught him, "He who has seen ME has seen the FATHER." Thomas wouldn't believe Jesus was alive unless he saw him for himself and he also wouldn't accept any imposters and needed to see his wounds. There was only one single person in the entire world who could say "He who has seen ME has seen the FATHER." Thomas' words to Jesus illustrate that he really believed it was in fact Jesus alive and well standing before him.

According to Jesus at John 14:9, WHO did Thomas see at John 20:27?



Since there is only one God, and the God of Jesus is that God, there is no God but the God of Jesus. The only God is his God and there is no other.

And for honest rational minds that is an inescapable fact.

What you’re saying is certainly plausible and even likely, but calling Jesus God isn’t a New Testament doctrine. There aren’t any examples of this to make it precedented.

It also is clear they Thomas’ answer isn’t the one from heaven revealed by God. Jesus said the answer about him revealed by God is he is the son of God and Messiah. Neither of those are the same tho my as saying someone is God. Sod of God refer to God’s children.

 

[puddleglum]

No' Jesus was a son of God just as all are who has received from God that what Jesus did in Matt 3:16 that obviously you deny in yourself.

The final words of Jesus in the gospel of Matthew were, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” This proves that his relationship with the Father was not the same as that of other men.

 

[Runningman]

Excellent points. I've said basically the same thing for years now and it just falls on "deaf" ears. That is they keep trying to make "the Father" the ONLY reference to "God", when it is a term clearly employed throughout the New Testament to distinguish the Father in His "God-ness" from the Son is HIS same "God-ness" and the Spirit from his self-same "God-ness. If the Father alone is God, there would be no need to distinguish him as "the Father" and one would ONLY see the same continued metaphorical applications of that term.

But you don't: God is NEVER ONCE identified as "the Father" in the Old Testament (other than in a collective and metaphorical sense). For example, Malachi 2:10, "Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us?" Or Isaiah 63:16, Isaiah 64:8; or Jeremiah 3:19. In short, God is "Father to all men because he created the world or he fathered the world. So again, why bother making the distinction if there is no distinction to be made? Keep up the good work. And "PS:" for those why deny what I just said. Did you notice that the Son is also identified as the creator at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-18 and Revelation 3:14.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Seems you deny that the Father is the only true God like that Bible says. The word only means there aren’t any other Gods. Jesus is not the only true God by his admission. Read John 17:3 again. If you can’t accept this foundational information you’re not going to understand the Bible accurately.

 

[Gary Mac]

Sometimes I have to wonder why you are here.

I know why! To lead you to the same God as Jesus tries to lead you to.

Sometimes I have to wonder why MOST people are here.

Most here as as you to promote your own doctrines for a belief governed by a creed.

Because you, like they, seem to do nothing but "throw" verses at each other. You ignore their verses. You think they ignore your verses.

Lets look at this sense you say you are the authoriety of God and Jesus and Gods word, OK?

Tell us where His word abides!

How many you have saved by leading them to God as the word said you should?

How many have you laid hands on and healed as those in God do?

Tell us of your perfection as is commanded of you in the bible in Matt 5:48.

Tell us how you walk as He walks in His same light as it requires of you sense you say you are the authority?

Tell us where the kingdom of God is sense you are the authority of where it is?

Tell us when you saw Him as He is and are like Him, sense you are the authoriet of 1 John 3?

Sense you are the authoriety of His word, tell us what happened in Jesus in Matt 3;16 when God Himself came and opend up who He is and all of His heaven in Jesus.

Shall we continue? There is much more for you to explain of your great knowledge of the word ... OKAY?

And you never answered -- Who was it Jesus spoke of who sent him to show you Gods ways when he said this. of himself and his God who sent him?

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.



John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

So why are you even here?

I ask the same of you, but then I already know!

Part of me thinks that you are doing some "divine bliessing" by repeating your proof-texts ten million times.

All of me knows you dont have a clue who God is or Jesus was.

Part of me thinks that you are so afraid of admitting that there is any merit in those who who disagree with you, that you think you are then, "losing ground". I don't know.

And I know that you won't answer my questions above least you lie about them.

Sometimes I simply want to ask you what Biblical proof you would need to accept that Jesus is in fact deity(*).

Are deityu in us all who has receive the same from God as Jesus did in Matt 3:16. You havent received the same from God as he did as you are supposed to and walk as He walks in His same light have you? That is very obvious.

My guess is that you will say there is nothing that God could reveal to prove that Jesus is deity, since you would think that would contradict Scripture. So that's a problem.

You always guess.

(You will note that in this context of discussion, I prefer to say "Jesus is deity", rather than "Jesus is God", since many people of your persuasion equate "God" with the "Father", as if it were another name for the Father. It is not. "The Father" is WHO He is, "God" is WHAT He is." I have brought this up before, but I believe you simply mock it, as if it were some denial of the person of God.)​

And Jesus was His son just as I am. I am that I am because of the Father who is in me. Same one Jesus received in Matt 3:16. That is foreign to your own isn't it?

But here is the problem that you have with all your "proof-texts".

1) NONE of your proof-texts say, "God is the Father", to the exclusion of anyone else.​

Because you do not believe what the Bible says of the Father who sent Jesus.

You read what it says but cant hear it is all.

 

[Gary Mac]

Seems you deny that the Father is the only true God like that Bible says. The word only means there aren’t any other Gods. Jesus is not the only true God by his admission. Read John 17:3 again. If you can’t accept this foundational information you’re not going to understand the Bible accurately.

He reads what it says but cannot hear it just as most in this forum do and quote it in complete ignorance of the spiritual content. Their mind is carnal and of this physical world instead of the Spirit Gods is as Jesus was and so clear to state in Luke 17:20-21. They dont have a clue that Gods kingdom is supposed to be within them. They have other means for an end.

 

[Our Lord's God]

What you’re saying is certainly plausible and even likely, but calling Jesus God isn’t a New Testament doctrine.

He never called Jesus "God." Those who say he did only demonstrate that they learned nothing from Jesus.

Thomas declared exactly what Jesus had taught him. He who has seen me has seen someone else. He who has seen me has seen my God. Not only so, Jesus explained how/why that is true but Trinitarians don't hear a word he said.

There aren’t any examples of this to make it precedented.

It also is clear they Thomas’ answer isn’t the one from heaven revealed by God. Jesus said the answer about him revealed by God is he is the son of God and Messiah. Neither of those are the same tho my as saying someone is God. Sod of God refer to God’s children.

 

[Theo1689]

Sometimes I wonder why you’re here as well. I suspect it’s because you think you’re doing a service to God but I have no doubt He detests your open practice of idolatry.

<sigh>
I sincerely believe I gave you some good points to consider, and some good advice to move the discussion forward, instead of simply flapping your gums talking past each other.

But instead of taking it to heart, and considering it, you apparently decided to simply take personal defend, and respond in a, "I know you are but what am I?" fashion.

And that's sad.

As for your false accusation of "idolatry", I understand where you're coming from, and you are simply wrong. I'm not worshipping a man, I'm worshipping the God of the Bible, who BECAME a man. And that's NOT "idolatry".

You reject all the passages which teach that Jesus is deity.
I do not.
So I am on solid ground.

But you need not worry about my standing before God:

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Rom. 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

You were never commanded to make Jesus God or worship him as God.

I don't have to "make" Jesus anything.
He already made Himself God.

You don’t have any confessions by Jesus or anyone else on the Bible that Jesus is God.

You need to open your eyes:

Isa. 9:6 ... And [the child] shall be called, ... Mighty God.."
John 1:1 ... And the word was God.
John 20:28 ... And Thomas said to [Jesus], ... my God."
Acts 20:28 ... Church of God .... [God's] own blood".
Phil. 2:5-6 ... Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God..."
Col. 2:9 ... the fullness of the godhead bodily...
Tit. 2:13 ... "our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ".
Heb. 1:8 ... of the Son, He says, "thy throne, O God..."
2 Pet. 1:1 ... the righteousness of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ"

You don’t have be any examples of Jesus preexisting.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Phil. 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


John 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

Do you believe what Jesus believes about himself and God? Yea or no

Of course I do.

 

[Theo1689]

Seems you deny that the Father is the only true God like that Bible says.

Wrong again.

As I have pointed out repeaetedly, you don't seem to understand the difference between,

"The Father is the only true God" (which we believe), and
"Only the Father is God" (which is what Scripture does NOT say).

The word only means there aren’t any other Gods.

The issue is not about multiple "gods", the issue is multiple persons in the ONE true godhead.

Jesus is not the only true God by his admission.

Jesus NEVER said, "I am not the only true God".
You lose.

Read John 17:3 again.

I've probably read it over a hundred times.
It's not going to change its meaning.

If you can’t accept this foundational information you’re not going to understand the Bible accurately.

I've already demonstrated that YOU are the one who doesn't correctly understand John 17:3.

"Only" doesn't modify "Father".
"Only" modifies "God".