IMO ....... some of you guys are trying to re-make, that which was already done.
Jesus below does away with TD
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IMO ....... some of you guys are trying to re-make, that which was already done.
CrowCross
Well-known member
Sometimes it does turn nit picky and meaningless.
There is much to be learned from discussions like these. Bringing up a verse and refusing to defend an understanding you read into, is very telling.
CrowCross
Well-known member
And some people like you don't want to learn....especially when your reply is....Eisegesis
You should probably go back to John 6 and read it again.
"59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 So then many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This statement is very [k]unpleasant; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, aware that His disciples were complaining about this, said to them, “Is this [l]offensive to you? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would [m]betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”"
For what reason did Jesus tell them that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted from the Father? The sentence prior "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him." Jesus was not speaking of just the 12, for this was addressed to ALL his disciples at that time. It wasn't until after Jesus was done saying these things, that they all left him, except for the 12. This goes back to what He had already said earlier in John 6. Stop taking verses in isolation.
Thats what it’s called when you read an idea into the text. You quoted John6:65, and when asked to explain your viewpoint of the verse, within the context of the verse, you couldn’t. Or wouldn’t.
CrowCross
Well-known member
It get old when I need to explain myself several time to people like you.
The verse means what it says...many left because they were not granted the ability to come to Christ. Got it?
Right, it’s faith being granted so that they could come to the Father. The only ones who believed were the 12.
“Those who believe” is only speaking of the 12. They are the only ones who could come.
I agree.
I’m not. My only point is that the idea that Jesus is preaching calvinism is false. That idea is being read into the text. The only ones who came, and were drawn, were the 12. One Jesus gained all power and authority from the Father, when He was lifted up, He draws all men to Himself.
Something you do all the time. ^
People that dig deeper?
No, I don’t “got it”, because the verse says nothing about ability. The term is relatively harmless on its own, but your use carries with it numerous presuppositions. You continue to read that into the text.
That is not what Jesus said. He said NO MAN, not no disciple comes to me. No man comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Stop isolating the verse. You say you don't, but that is exactly what you are doing. The disciples and Judas are examples of what Jesus is talking about. "He draws all men to Himself." There is the universalism again.
No men came except the 12, who were drawn.
I am reading the verse and understanding it in its own context.
They are only ones who Jesus is talking about. When He was done running everyone off, they were all that remained.
It’s what the verse says. I don’t adhere to “universalism”.
LOL ... the eisegetical king, @cadwell
Except Jesus says that all who are drawn to Him will be saved. So no, the way you are using it means universalism.
They will be, Rev 21:14.
Am not. The context of John 12:32 is judgment, every single person will have to contend with the cross. Everyone will be judged of either belief or unbelief. This is the opposite of universalism.
"30 Jesus responded, “This voice came, not for Me, but for you. 31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 As for Me, if I am lifted up[i] from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.” 33 He said this to signify what kind of death He was about to die."
There you go taking verses in isolation again. It's nice to see what Jesus said is that He would draw all PEOPLE, not all men. So, in other words, there is no discrimination. All people, not just the Jewish people.
The “lifting up” part is what signified what kind of death He would die. That’s why in verse 34 they said “we thought the OT said the Christ would abide forever” (paraphrasing). Verse 31, the judgment of the WORLD, and lifted from the EARTH in verse 32, is how Jesus will judge ALL. Neither “men” or “people” is originally in the text. Everyone will have to contend with the cross, everyone will be drawn to Jesus, and everyone has a decision to make.
Eisegesis.
More @cadwell eisegesis ^
Jn 12:32-33 ... And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.” 33 Now He was saying this to indicate what kind of death He was going to die.
Repeats and expands his eisegesis ^
You're not paying attention. Secularism is removing God from the equation, and there's little opposition to it ...
2 Thess 2:8-12 ... Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Only the elect are drawn to Christ.