Jesus below does away with TD

Thank you for all that, but I am asking in relation to John 6:65, the verse you brought up. How does God grant one the ability to come to Him? According to John 6?
I should start a Thread about trying to Box-In a Sola Scripturist. What you are doing is like a Secular Astronomist trying to Debate a Christian on Christianity, and talking them into leaving their Bible at home. Sure; we believe John 6; and more...
 
Thank you for all that, but I am asking in relation to John 6:65, the verse you brought up. How does God grant one the ability to come to Him? According to John 6?

Does John 6:44 say:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me "grants him the ability to come"?

Or does it say:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him"?
 
I should start a Thread about trying to Box-In a Sola Scripturist. What you are doing is like a Secular Astronomist trying to Debate a Christian on Christianity, and talking them into leaving their Bible at home. Sure; we believe John 6; and more...
I only wish to have a discussion about John 6, minus presupposition. Bring your bible, and leave your presuppositions at home.
 
By being taught by God. 45
Given to Christ by the Father. 37
I would slightly disagree, because Jesus said they must also hear and learn, and ultimately blamed a lack of faith for them not staying. Peter said faith is the thing which made the 11 stay. When you bring up ability, do you mean faith? I keep asking, and you keep not answering, where does faith come in all of this, in John 6?
 
I would slightly disagree, because Jesus said they must also hear and learn, and ultimately blamed a lack of faith for them not staying. Peter said faith is the thing which made the 11 stay. When you bring up ability, do you mean faith? I keep asking, and you keep not answering, where does faith come in all of this, in John 6?
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God...
 
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God...
Amen. So in John 6:45, no one could come unless they were taught, heard, and learned. Are we to assume those who came had faith, or were they drawn without it? Did they come with faith, or did they come to receive faith?
 
Amen. So in John 6:45, no one could come unless they were taught, heard, and learned. Are we to assume those who came had faith, or were they drawn without it? Did they come with faith, or did they come to receive faith?
I thought you won; are you now not boxing me in to John 6? No one can do anything regarding Salvation without Grace Prevening it...
 
I would slightly disagree, because Jesus said they must also hear and learn, and ultimately blamed a lack of faith for them not staying. Peter said faith is the thing which made the 11 stay. When you bring up ability, do you mean faith? I keep asking, and you keep not answering, where does faith come in all of this, in John 6?

You seem to be suggesting a "salvation by works" (which may be why I generally don't respond to your posts).

In order to be saved, you seem to be saying we must:
1) hear;
2) learn;
3) come;
4) believe;
5)
6)
7)

Now, you keep asking, "where does faith fit in all this, in John 6?".
As RevRV and others have pointed out, if you want to learn where faith fits in, we need to go to passages which SPEAK of this (such as Eph. 2). But you refuse to allow this, which suggests that you are more interested in defending a personal doctrine, and less interested in learning God's truth.

John 6:45 is a very interesting continuation of v.44, and most non-Calvinists simply gloss over it after projecting their preferred interpretation, which nobody is allowed to disagree with.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

Now the KJV has the more ambiguous, "taught of God", which is a more literal and less nuanced translation of the Greek, since "God" is in the genitive case. But "taught of God" is ambiguous on the surface, and can be (validly) in two different ways:

1) "taught about God";
2) "taught by God".

We have to remember that today's scholars and translators have 400+ more years of research under their belts than the KJV translators had. According to Dr. Dan Wallace ("Biblical Greek Beyond the Basics"), the structure is what is referred to as "genitive of agency", and is referring to WHO is doing the action. Hence, "taught by God". So being "taught by God" is not so much an "extra" step that we need to do, but it is the MEANS by which God draws us. Jesus is explaining HOW God draws us.

Another important factor which goes unnoticed by many is the fact that the verbal adjective ("taught") is in the PASSIVE voice. Those who are drawn are not the ones doing the teaching, they are the ones RECEIVING the teaching, passively. This is one of the ways the "genitive of agency" is identified, as it follows a passive verbal adjective (usually with a particular ending, "-τος"), and a personal noun (eg. "theos") is in the genitive case following it. The translation and interpretation are also informed by Isa. 54:13.

As for faith, Scripture repeatedly teaches us that faith is a gift given to us by God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc. ec.)

So salvation is not achieved by a series of things WE do ("hear, come, learn, believe", etc.)
Salvation is acheieved by a series of things GOD does:

- God elects;
- God regenerates;
- God gives us a new heart;
- God gives us faith;
- God gives us repentance;
- God teaches us;
- God draws us;
- God justifies us;
- God sanctifies us;
- GOd glorifies us.

See passages such as Rom. 8:28ff and Eph. 1

We believe BECAUSE God gives us faith.
We come BECAUSE God draws us.
We learn BECAUSE God teaches us.

All these things mentioned are not "requirements" that we must do to be saved (or to save ourselves?), they are the RESULTS of what God has done TO us.
 
I thought you won; are you now not boxing me in to John 6?
This is still about John 6, discussing faith is germane because its mentioned repeatedly in the chapter. I wasnt happy with myself for using the word "assume", but I was just trying to speak your language. I am trying to gather where you, according to John 6, believe faith enters the picture. Before being drawn, after coming, after being drawn, etc?
No one can do anything regarding Salvation without Grace Prevening it...
Where is this found in John 6?
 
This is still about John 6, discussing faith is germane because its mentioned repeatedly in the chapter. I wasnt happy with myself for using the word "assume", but I was just trying to speak your language. I am trying to gather where you, according to John 6, believe faith enters the picture. Before being drawn, after coming, after being drawn, etc?

Where is this found in John 6?
Faith enters the picture after regeneration (cf Eph 2:1-5; Mt 11:15); regeneration occurs for each individual at a time predetermined by God (cf Eph 1:4ff)
 
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This is still about John 6, discussing faith is germane because its mentioned repeatedly in the chapter. I wasnt happy with myself for using the word "assume", but I was just trying to speak your language. I am trying to gather where you, according to John 6, believe faith enters the picture. Before being drawn, after coming, after being drawn, etc?

Where is this found in John 6?
I said you won...

Let me know when you unbox me...
 
I said you won...

Let me know when you unbox me...
The answer is in the text. You don’t have to leave John 6 to gather it. This is how we arrive at the conclusion that ideas are being read into the text. You call it being “boxed in”, I call it exegesis.
 
The answer is in the text. You don’t have to leave John 6 to gather it. This is how we arrive at the conclusion that ideas are being read into the text. You call it being “boxed in”, I call it exegesis.
You win dude; don't you want to be proved right?

Let me know when you will unbox me...
 
Without John 3, John 6 is misunderstood.

John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 
Amen. And the very next thing He said? What did He know?
Here it is:

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

They were offended at Jesus...I don't think this is a good argument for disproving total depravity...I will hear you out though.
 
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