Lazarus ....!

[Reformedguy]

Force = The capacity to do work or cause physical change; energy, strength, or active power: the force of an explosion.

Your definition cannot be applicable to Lazarus since he was dead physically and it took the force of Christ to raise him. Why do you conflate the terms of force used to raise a physically dead man and one dead relationally? The one dead physically needed the force of Christ to change his situation, while the one dead relationally needed the blood of Christ to change his situation.

The physically dead are cut off from life and no longer can change their situation, while those dead in relation to God can change their situation because "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them". That is why the Apostle Paul stated, "we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

My point was Lazarus was not raised, forced, against his will. Could he have said, no thanks, I prefer to stay here.

 

[CrowCross]

You remind me of Jesse Lee Peterson.
Every time he asks a question and his guest dodges it, he simply repeats the same question over and over.

What they don't realize is that if God forced me to believe in Jesus for my salvation....I'm glad He did. If that got me saved then I'm all for it....that means God forcing me kept me out of hell for eternity.

It seems as some here would rather spend eternity in hell rather than having heaven forced upon them.

 

[Joe]

I'm not sure what it is you're arguing against here.

The conflating of using Lazarus' physical deadness to that of a living person dead in relation to God.

Calvinists often conflate being dead physically to being dead figuratively. One definition is literally being dead, cut off from life, no longer living, while the other definition is being dead in relations to God because of sin and yet alive physically. The one who is literally dead cannot do anything the living can do. The one that is living and yet dead in sin-in relation to God can be reborn-given a new life once they place faith in Christ; all of this by God's grace through faith.

 

[4Him]

The conflating of using Lazarus' physical deadness to that of a living person dead in relation to God.

What about it? We were spiritually dead as Lazarus was physically dead.

Calvinists often conflate being dead physically to being dead figuratively.

A spiritually dead man can no more make himself alive than a physically dead man can make himself alive.

 

[CookedGoose]

Calvinists often conflate being dead physically to being dead figuratively

The RCC is the one "diggin' up bones" and drinking blood, not Calvinists.

 

[Joe]

My point was Lazarus was not raised, forced, against his will. Could he have said, no thanks, I prefer to stay here.

How could he? He was literally dead without any recourse to change his situation. And that is in no comparison for those who are alive physically and dead in sin-relations to God, for "in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them...We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God".

We all were dead in relations to God-cut off from life, but Paul tells us clearly that God reconciled us to Himself, and that we who are alive physically can have a change of our estranged relation by our "be reconciled to God".

Calvinists try to conflate Lazarus' deadness with man's dead relations to God and they are not the same. Lazarus is dead and incapable of changing his situation, while those who are alive physically can have a change of heart and believe, thus obeying the Good News of God to repent and believe to have life.

 

[4Him]

How could he? He was literally dead without any recourse to change his situation. And that is in no comparison for those who are alive physically and dead in sin-relations to God, for "in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them...We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God".

We all were dead in relations to God-cut off from life, but Paul tells us clearly that God reconciled us to Himself, and that we who are alive physically can have a change of our estranged relation by our "be reconciled to God".

Calvinists try to conflate Lazarus' deadness with man's dead relations to God and they are not the same. Lazarus is dead and incapable of changing his situation, while those who are alive physically can have a change of heart and believe, thus obeying the Good News of God to repent and believe to have life.

Yea it is the same. A man can no more make himself spiritually alive than Lazarus could make himself physically alive. It’s all Gods doing.

 

[Reformedguy]

How could he? He was literally dead without any recourse to change his situation. And that is in no comparison for those who are alive physically and dead in sin-relations to God, for "in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them...We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God".

We all were dead in relations to God-cut off from life, but Paul tells us clearly that God reconciled us to Himself, and that we who are alive physically can have a change of our estranged relation by our "be reconciled to God".

Calvinists try to conflate Lazarus' deadness with man's dead relations to God and they are not the same. Lazarus is dead and incapable of changing his situation, while those who are alive physically can have a change of heart and believe, thus obeying the Good News of God to repent and believe to have life.

Easy. Once alive he had free will no? Or not?

 

[Synergy]

None of that refers to the possibility of spiritual death, but it refers to being carnal and the One who can deliver us.

Then what type of death do you think Romans 8:6 refers to?
Rom 8:6: For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

Not even remotely.

False. Life/salvation is only found "in Christ":
2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
That makes our salvation conditional.

Yes, Jesus frees the elect from sin and death.

Please forward at least verse that says exactly that.

Christ is in the elect.

The following proves that all Ephesians were not always "in Christ" which makes our salvation conditional on us being "in Christ":

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, the nations, in time past were in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

 

[Joe]

What about it? We were spiritually dead as Lazarus was physically dead.


A spiritually dead man can no more make himself alive than a physically dead man can make himself alive.

You have conflated two different things as if they are one. They are not the same. Lazarus being physically dead could not do anything about his state, but man can change their state from condemnation to justified when by faith they believe the Good News that is preached to them.

"even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...by grace you have been saved through faith". "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them"...We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

Reconciliation on God's side has already occurred. It is man who must now "be reconciled to God"....This is something that man can do by believing God's Good News. Lazarus had no chance to change his state.

 

[Joe]

The RCC is the one "diggin' up bones" and drinking blood, not Calvinists.

You obviously misunderstand the conflation of Calvinists using Lazarus's deadness and the deadness in Ephesians 2:1.

 

[4Him]

Then what type of death do you think Romans 8:6 refers to?
Rom 8:6: For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

Believers aren't carnally minded any longer, a point you missed.

False. Life/salvation is only found "in Christ":

No kidding...I was addressing your silly comment of
"also throws the Calvinist unconditional election theory for another 100 yard loss."

2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
That makes our salvation conditional.

No, it doesn't.

Please forward at least verse that says exactly that.

Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Who are God's elect?

Believers are the elect. Unless you can show from Scripture where any 'unelect' are in Christ.

You literally just quoted a verse about the elect....and you don't understand who that is?

The following proves that all Ephesians were not always "in Christ" which makes our salvation conditional on us being "in Christ":

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, the nations, in time past were in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

Moot point you're trying to make here since.....We were all once without Christ....hence the need to be born again.

 

[4Him]

You have conflated two different things as if they are one.

Not at all.

They are not the same.

They are.

Lazarus being physically dead could not do anything about his state, but man can change their state from condemnation to justified when by faith they believe the Good News that is preached to them.

God changes their state.

"even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...

WHO made us alive together with Christ...

by grace you have been saved through faith".

Faith is granted by God.

"in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them"...We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."

Wonderful verse. Man can't reconcile himself to God.

It is man who must now "be reconciled to God"....This is something that man can do by believing God's Good News. Lazarus had no chance to change his state.

Man can do nothing apart from God....man can't come to God until and unless God draws him. Man can do nothing unless and until God changes his heart. Dead men can do nothing.

 

[4Him]

Christ is in whoever believes in Him, places their faith in Him, repents and follows Him I.e.

Not one person can do that unless and until they are drawn by God.

the whosoever in John 3:16/

"whosoever"=all the believing.

1John 2:2/Revelation 22:17. People join the elect by obeying God’s requirements not by a heavenly lottery.

The unelect cannot obey God.

 

[Joe]

Yea it is the same. A man can no more make himself spiritually alive than Lazarus could make himself physically alive. It’s all Gods doing.

Nah, it ain't the same. No man is making himself alive. Man is obeying the Good News of God to believe, then man receives eternal life.

Man must participate in his salvation/be reconciled to God.
Did God repent for you?..No.
Did God believe for you?..No
When did you receive eternal life before or after believing?...After

You have it wrong by conflating the dead state of physical man, and the dead relational state of man with God which God rectified by the sin offering of His Son and "now he commands all people everywhere to repent".

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Not one person can do that unless and until they are drawn by God.


"whosoever"=all the believing.


The unelect cannot obey God.

The whosoever are who Jesus said they are I.e. whosoever believes minus the Calvinist qualifier of being elect. I do agree no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.

 

[4Him]

The whosoever are who Jesus said they are I.e. whosoever believes minus the Calvinist qualifier of being elect. I do agree no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them.

All the believing.

 

[4Him]

Nah, it ain't the same.

Yes, it is.

No man is making himself alive. Man is obeying the Good News of God to believe, then man receives eternal life.

A dead man cannot obey God.

Man must participate in his salvation/be reconciled to God.

Where is this found in Scripture? That we 'participate' in salvation?

Did God repent for you?..No.

He granted me repentance.

Did God believe for you?..No

He granted me faith.

When did you receive eternal life before or after believing?...After

I believed because God regenerated me, changed my heart, granted me repentance and faith.

You have it wrong

No, I don't.

by conflating the dead state of physical man, and the dead relational state of man with God which God rectified by the sin offering of His Son and "now he commands all people everywhere to repent".

So do all people repent? I mean He commands it, right?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, it is.

A dead man cannot obey God.

Where is this found in Scripture? That we 'participate' in salvation?

He granted me repentance.

He granted me faith.

I believed because God regenerated me, changed my heart, granted me repentance and faith.


No, I don't.


So do all people repent? I mean He commands it, right?

Keep up schooling him, Sister! He needs to learn.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

All the believing.

Not what the verse says it says whosoever believes which Calvinist changed so their errors and confusion works for them. Same with Revelation 22:17 which says the Spirit and the Bride say come and whosoever will drink of the water of life freely.