Limited Atonement didn't come from Calvin or Scripture

[Alison Wonderland]

I don’t know where the belief in Limited atonement came from but it certainly didn’t come from Calvin. Calvin believed in infant baptismal REGENERATION which is actually universal salvation, not election or limited atonement. So using Calvin’s name to describe election and limited atonement is a misnomer. Here’s what he said in His Institutes Bk. 4:Chapter 16 section 2:

"Scripture shows, first, that it points to that cleansing from sin which we obtain by the blood of Christ; and, secondly, to the mortification of the flesh, which consists in participation in his death, by which believers are regenerated to newness of life, and thereby to the fellowship of Christ…it is also a symbol to testify our religion to men."

Calvin’s contradictions:

1)He said that believers are regenerated to the newness of life.” Infants aren’t believers since they don’t even know who Jesus is.

2) Calvin said that he was converted between 1532-1533. Converted from what? Being regenerated when he was baptized as an infant?

3)Since Calvin said that infant baptism was of divine origin, then he supported baptizing ALL infants, which contradicts his claim that God only chose few to be saved. Thus, his belief in infant baptism is actually universal salvation rather than limited atonement and election since he said that people are regenerated at infant baptism.

4) It is well-known that Calvin believed and practiced infant baptism (as he says in this article as well) which contradicts his whole theology if he, infact, did believe in election and limited atonement, and is one of the reasons that he supported the murder of Servetus who didn’t support infant baptism.

John Calvin on Infant Baptism

 

[Theo1689]

I don’t know where the belief in Limited atonement came from but it certainly didn’t come from Calvin.

Um, it came from SCRIPTURE.

I don't know if you're going to be here for awhile, or simply going to leave after condemning people for a couple of days. But if you SERIOUSLY want to understand the issue (and if you don't, your opinions here are worthless), I would strongly suggest that you read John Owen's "Death of Death in the Death of Christ", and John Murray's "Redemption Accomplished and Applied".

Or you could simply respond with emotion.

Calvin believed in infant baptismal REGENERATION

Um, we don't get our theology from "Calvin".
We get our theology from the BIBLE.

But if you're truly interested in it, here's some others who discovered "limited atonement" from the BIBLE:

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “He endured the sufferings for those men whose souls are [actually] purified from all iniquity…As Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted, and of various forms, so Christ served even to the cross for men of every kind, of many and various shapes, procuring them by His blood and the mystery of the cross.”

Irenaeus (A.D. 180): “He came to save all, all, I say, who through Him are born again unto God, infants, and little ones, and children, and young men, and old men…Jesus is the Savior of them that believe; but the Lord of them that believe not. Wherefore, Christ is introduced in the gospel weary…promising to give His life a ransom, in the room of, many.”

Tertullian (A.D. 200): “Christ died for the salvation of His people…for the church.”

Cyprian (A.D. 250): “All the sheep which Christ hath sought up by His blood and sufferings are saved…Whosoever shall be found in the blood, and with the mark of Christ shall only escape…He redeemed the believers with the price of His own blood…Let him be afraid to die who is not reckoned to have any part in the cross and sufferings of Christ.”

Eusebius (A.D. 330): “To what ‘us’ does he refer, unless to them that believe in Him? For to them that do not believe in Him, He is the author of their fire and burning. The cause of Christ’s coming is the redemption of those that were to be saved by Him.”

Hilarion (A.D. 363): “He shall remain in the sight of God forever, having already taken all whom He hath redeemed to be kings of heaven, and co-heirs of eternity, delivering them as the kingdom of God to the Father.”

Ambrose (A.D. 380): “Before the foundation of the world, it was God’s will that Christ should suffer for our salvation…Can He damn thee, whom He hath redeemed from death, for whom He offered Himself, whose life He knows is the reward of His own death?”

Pacian (A.D. 380): “Much more, He will not allow him that is redeemed to be destroyed, nor will He cast away those whom He has redeemed with a great price.”

Epiphanius (A.D. 390): “If you are redeemed…If therefore ye are bought with blood, thou are not the number of them who were bought with blood, O Manes, because thou deniest the blood…He gave His life for His own sheep.”

Jerome (A.D. 390): “Christ is sacrificed for the salvation of believers…Not all are redeemed, for not all shall be saved, but the remnant…All those who are redeemed and delivered by Thy blood return to Zion, which Thou hast prepared for Thyself by Thine own blood…Christ came to redeem Zion [a metaphor for the church] with His blood. But lest we should think that all are Zion or every one in Zion is truly redeemed of the Lord, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ form the Church…He did not give His life for every man, but for many, that is, for those who would believe.”

Calvin’s contradictions:

Not really interested...
Since we follow CHRIST, not "Calvin".

and is one of the reasons that he supported the murder of Servetus who didn’t support infant baptism.

Actually, the reason Calvin (and the ENTIRE church) supported the execution of Servetus is because he denied the TRINITY.

If you had lived in that day, you would have supported his execution as well.
It is the height of arrogance to assume that you are morally "superior" to ALL Christians back then, especially since you have the benefit of 400 years of wisdom that none of them had.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Um, it came from SCRIPTURE.

I don't know if you're going to be here for awhile, or simply going to leave after condemning people for a couple of days. But if you SERIOUSLY want to understand the issue (and if you don't, your opinions here are worthless), I would strongly suggest that you read John Owen's "Death of Death in the Death of Christ", and John Murray's "Redemption Accomplished and Applied".

Or you could simply respond with emotion.



Um, we don't get our theology from "Calvin".
We get our theology from the BIBLE.

But if you're truly interested in it, here's some others who discovered "limited atonement" from the BIBLE:

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “He endured the sufferings for those men whose souls are [actually] purified from all iniquity…As Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted, and of various forms, so Christ served even to the cross for men of every kind, of many and various shapes, procuring them by His blood and the mystery of the cross.”

Irenaeus (A.D. 180): “He came to save all, all, I say, who through Him are born again unto God, infants, and little ones, and children, and young men, and old men…Jesus is the Savior of them that believe; but the Lord of them that believe not. Wherefore, Christ is introduced in the gospel weary…promising to give His life a ransom, in the room of, many.”

Tertullian (A.D. 200): “Christ died for the salvation of His people…for the church.”

Cyprian (A.D. 250): “All the sheep which Christ hath sought up by His blood and sufferings are saved…Whosoever shall be found in the blood, and with the mark of Christ shall only escape…He redeemed the believers with the price of His own blood…Let him be afraid to die who is not reckoned to have any part in the cross and sufferings of Christ.”

Eusebius (A.D. 330): “To what ‘us’ does he refer, unless to them that believe in Him? For to them that do not believe in Him, He is the author of their fire and burning. The cause of Christ’s coming is the redemption of those that were to be saved by Him.”

Hilarion (A.D. 363): “He shall remain in the sight of God forever, having already taken all whom He hath redeemed to be kings of heaven, and co-heirs of eternity, delivering them as the kingdom of God to the Father.”

Ambrose (A.D. 380): “Before the foundation of the world, it was God’s will that Christ should suffer for our salvation…Can He damn thee, whom He hath redeemed from death, for whom He offered Himself, whose life He knows is the reward of His own death?”

Pacian (A.D. 380): “Much more, He will not allow him that is redeemed to be destroyed, nor will He cast away those whom He has redeemed with a great price.”

Epiphanius (A.D. 390): “If you are redeemed…If therefore ye are bought with blood, thou are not the number of them who were bought with blood, O Manes, because thou deniest the blood…He gave His life for His own sheep.”

Jerome (A.D. 390): “Christ is sacrificed for the salvation of believers…Not all are redeemed, for not all shall be saved, but the remnant…All those who are redeemed and delivered by Thy blood return to Zion, which Thou hast prepared for Thyself by Thine own blood…Christ came to redeem Zion [a metaphor for the church] with His blood. But lest we should think that all are Zion or every one in Zion is truly redeemed of the Lord, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ form the Church…He did not give His life for every man, but for many, that is, for those who would believe.”



Not really interested...
Since we follow CHRIST, not "Calvin".



Actually, the reason Calvin (and the ENTIRE church) supported the execution of Servetus is because he denied the TRINITY.

If you had lived in that day, you would have supported his execution as well.
It is the height of arrogance to assume that you are morally "superior" to ALL Christians back then, especially since you have the benefit of 400 years of wisdom that none of them had.

Christ died for his people but he also died for the sins of everyone else too. Most will simply reject it...which of course they can't do if it was never offered to them in the first place. Jn 3:36, Jn 1:29, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, 1 Jn 2:2, Jn 3:16, etc.

So quoting some verses while throwing out other verses is not how to read the Bible. It's REJECTING the verses you don't like. So listening to people do that is listening to people whose goal is to distort the Bible to suit their desires. So praying for you is the only thing I can do, Theo. Take care.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Hi Alison, I tend not to try to build an entire case over 1 action. Most of Europe was hunting Servetus down. Infant baptism had nothing to do with that. The issue was the Holy Trinity. Servetus adhered to Arian beliefs. It's a serious heresy.

I'm a reformed believer, but I don't hold to Infant baptism, rather I believe believers baptism. Hence, I don't follow everything that Calvin believed.

Most of the reformed believers here are Baptists. You'll have to find something else to to object to.

If Calvin said he was converted between 1532-1533, why not believe what he said?

The Bible clearly teaches limited atonement.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?



Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.



Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,



Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,



1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

God Speed

 

[Theo1689]

Christ died for his people but he also died for the sins of everyone else too.

I've studied the Scriptures for over 30 years, and have been attacked by non-Calvinists and their "proof-texts" for almost as long.

But they have never been able to prove from SCRIPTURE that Christ died for anyone other than His people.

Jn 1:29, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, 1 Jn 2:2, Jn 3:16, etc.

Okay, you list a few citations.
(Btw, they are same "usual suspects" that I've seen hundreds of times over the decades.)

Care to try to EXEGETE them, to try to DEMONSTRATE that they contradict "limited atonement"? No other non-Calvinist has been able to do so. Why do you think you are so different?

But I'll give you the opportunity.
I'll wait...

So quoting some verses while throwing out other verses is not how to read the Bible.

Exactly!

It's REJECTING the verses you don't like.

So maybe YOU should stop doing that?
(Just sayin'....)

So listening to people do that is listening to people whose goal is to distort the Bible to suit their desires.

Wow...
So anyone who disagrees with YOUR opinion of the Bible, is "distorting the Bible"?
I see you are still failing "Elementary Christianity", namely "charity".

I guess if I follow your "logic", then I can conclude that YOUR "goal is to distort the Bible to suit [your] desires", and that I'm justified in NOT listening to you.

Your philosophy of limiting yourself to an "echo chamber" and never listening to contrary views is the reason you hold to heretical doctrines. IMO.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Christ died for his people but he also died for the sins of everyone else too. Most will simply reject it...which of course they can't do if it was never offered to them in the first place. Jn 3:36, Jn 1:29, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, 1 Jn 2:2, Jn 3:16, etc.

Where exactly does the Bible teach that Jesus died for every single person who ever lived or will live? I've never seen such a thing.

So quoting some verses while throwing out other verses is not how to read the Bible. It's REJECTING the verses you don't like. So listening to people do that is listening to people whose goal is to distort the Bible to suit their desires. So praying for you is the only thing I can do, Theo. Take care.

This is just wrong. I have never rejected any verse in the Bible. So, there's that. I'm willing to go over every verse you think challenges reformed theology.

 

[Theo1689]

Christ died for his people but he also died for the sins of everyone else too. Most will simply reject it...which of course they can't do if it was never offered to them in the first place. Jn 3:36, Jn 1:29, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, 1 Jn 2:2, Jn 3:16, etc.

Okay, Alison...

edit I guess I'll have to do the work you refuse to do.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life".
One those who believe have eternal life.
I believe we are in agreement concerning this.

But NOTHING here says that "Christ atoned for every single individual who ever lived."

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Okay, this says "world" (Greek, "κοσμος"). I've already told you at least twice that we need to DISCUSS what this word means. You seem to ASSUME it means, "every single individual". Spoiler alert: It doesn't. BDAG is the most comprehensive lexicon we have, and it defines "kosmos" thusly:

κόσμος, ου, ὁ
1. that which serves to beautify through decoration, adornment, adorning
2. condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order
3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe,
4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals, the world,
5. planet earth as a place of inhabitation, the world
a. gener. Mk 16:15.
b. the world as the habitation of humanity
c. earth, world in contrast to heaven
d. the world outside in contrast to one’s home PtK 3 p. 15, 13; 19.
6. humanity in general, the world
a. gener.
b. of all humanity, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47b.
7. the system of human existence in its many aspects, the world
a. as scene of earthly joys, possessions, cares, sufferings
b. the world, and everything that belongs to it, appears as that which is hostile to God, i.e. lost in sin, wholly at odds w. anything divine, ruined and depraved
8. collective aspect of an entity, totality, sum total
-- BDAG, entry on "κοσμος"


Now, there are a few important points to look at here:

1) BDAG (nor ANY Greek lexicon I've ever seen, and I'm looked at many) define "κοσμος" as "every single individual". NOT ONE.

2) You might think, or wish to argue, that definition #4 supports your view, but it doesn't. It refers to "the sum total", as an aggregate, it does NOT say "every single individual of beings above the level of animals".

3) BDAG specifically defines "κοσμος" in John 3:16 as holding the meaning of 6b), namely the group of BELIEVERS among all humanity. So here it is defined as "believers", not "every single individual".

So I'm sorry, but you simply have to do MORE than just QUOTE a verse and ASSUME a meaning, in order to convince anyone of your view.



1Tim. 4:9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

This says that "God is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe".
This is NOT teaching "universal salvation" at the individual level.

It does NOT say, "the Saviour of all individuals".
It can mostly likely mean (and most certainly does, IMO) "the Saviour of all GROUPS of people (eg. kings, those in authority, Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Jews, rich, poor, bond, free, etc. etc.). Our interpretation is CERTAINLY as valid or possible as your own, so while we can have a discussion on it, this is certainly not a smash-down "victory" of your view.

Further, "especially those who believe" is more specifically telling us WHO from those "peoples" will be saved. In fact, it matches very well with another verse:

Rev. 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Notice it is that GROUPS that have the "every" associated with them, "every tribe and [every] language and [every] people and [every] nation", but that the INDIVIDUALS are CHOSEN and taken OUT of those groups.

It is not "every one was ransomed for God".
It is SOME were "ransomed for God" OUT OF many others who were NOT "ransomed for God".


1John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Again, here you are depending on the presence of "world", and ASSUMING (wrongly; see above) that it means "every single individual" (it doesn't).

The "our sins" are the sins of those Jews (John was a Jew), and "the world" refer to the elect from all the other nation groups.


John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Again, you depend on an errant ASSUMPTION regarding the meaning of "world", which we've seen above NEVER means, "every single individual". It is referring to the salvation of believers, not only from the Jews, but of Gentiles as well. Salvation is not restricted to Israel, Gentiles will find salvation as well.



So we see, NONE of your "proof-texts" teach "unlimited atonement", or "universal atonement". You ASSUME they do, but they don't.

So praying for you is the only thing I can do, Theo. Take care.

Well, since you seem unable to exegete the very verses YOU cite, let alone understand them, I guess prayer IS "the only thing [you] can do".

edit

 

[TomFL]

Okay, Alison...

Since you are too lazy to do the work, and clearly aren't familiar enough with Scripture to actually exegete your way out of a paper bag, I guess I'll have to do the work you refuse to do.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life".
One those who believe have eternal life.
I believe we are in agreement concerning this.

But NOTHING here says that "Christ atoned for every single individual who ever lived."

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Okay, this says "world" (Greek, "κοσμος"). I've already told you at least twice that we need to DISCUSS what this word means. You seem to ASSUME it means, "every single individual". Spoiler alert: It doesn't. BDAG is the most comprehensive lexicon we have, and it defines "kosmos" thusly:

κόσμος, ου, ὁ
1. that which serves to beautify through decoration, adornment, adorning
2. condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order
3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe,
4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals, the world,
5. planet earth as a place of inhabitation, the world
a. gener. Mk 16:15.
b. the world as the habitation of humanity
c. earth, world in contrast to heaven
d. the world outside in contrast to one’s home PtK 3 p. 15, 13; 19.
6. humanity in general, the world
a. gener.
b. of all humanity, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47b.
7. the system of human existence in its many aspects, the world
a. as scene of earthly joys, possessions, cares, sufferings
b. the world, and everything that belongs to it, appears as that which is hostile to God, i.e. lost in sin, wholly at odds w. anything divine, ruined and depraved
8. collective aspect of an entity, totality, sum total
-- BDAG, entry on "κοσμος"

Hello

of all humanity, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47b.

citing

John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


John 6:51 (KJV)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ died for his people but he also died for the sins of everyone else too. Most will simply reject it...which of course they can't do if it was never offered to them in the first place. Jn 3:36, Jn 1:29, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, 1 Jn 2:2, Jn 3:16, etc.

So quoting some verses while throwing out other verses is not how to read the Bible. It's REJECTING the verses you don't like. So listening to people do that is listening to people whose goal is to distort the Bible to suit their desires. So praying for you is the only thing I can do, Theo. Take care.

Thats a false gospel to say Crist died for everyone without exception. You saying He died for people who are lost in their sins, thats grave error friend.

 

[TomFL]

Thats a false gospel to say Crist died for everyone without exception. You saying He died for people who are lost in their sins, thats grave error friend.

Its scripture

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:34 AM April 16, 2021.

 

[TomFL]

Its scripture

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:34 AM April 16, 2021.

 

[brightfame52]

Its scripture

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 9:34 AM April 16, 2021.

All those scriptures teach limited atonement.

 

[brightfame52]

edit

It could be you twisted all of them, you ever thought about that ?

 

[Alison Wonderland]

It could be you twisted all of them, you ever thought about that ?

Lol. S-o-o which words have I changed in the above verses, brightflame? NONE of them. NOT ONE.

You need to remember one thing; in order to change Scripture, people FIRST HAVE to KNOW WHAT the verse means as written. So people who believe in limited atonement KNOW what those verses mean AS WRITTEN. They just don't like them. So they HAVE to REDEFINE words, which they ADMIT the do. Here is the nonsense that theyv'e made of Scripture:

1) 1 They've turned 1 Tim. 10 which reads, "...who is the Savior of ALL men, and ESPECIALLY those who believe into:
Who is the Savior of ONLY those who believe and especially of only those who believe." lol. It's not only nonsensical it's redundant.

2) They've changed 1 Jn 2:2 which reads, "He is the atononing sacrifice for our sins, and not only for OUR sins but ALSO for for the sins of the WHOLE WORlD"
into;

"He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not only for OUR sins but ALSO for OUR sins." lol.

But that's what happens when they change the words"whole world" to mean, "Only the sins of the elect." NONSENSE. I can show you every verse that they twist into nonsense but it would take a lot of time. They are turning GOD into an absolute fool by turning his words into nonense. People SHOULD gett the picture by now of what trying to change the Bible does.

 

[Theo1689]

I've quoted all those Scriptures to people who believe in limited atonement and they twist and rewrite ALL of them.

Nice personal attack.

They also attack my personality

So you accuse Christians of "twisting Scripture", and "blasphemy", but YOU are the one who's personality is attacked?

You truly have no self-awareness...

because even they know that they have to twist the Bible to believe in limited atonement.

Nope.
We aren't the ones "twisting the Bible".
YOU are.

So they hate the messenger when they don't like the message.

That's describing YOU.
(See how easy it is to make accusations?)

But the truth is, there is NO verse in the Bible that says that Jesus did NOT DIE for most people.

And THAT is the logical fallacy called "appeal to silence".

That's only a sick interpretation by those who don't want to believe that Jesus loves everyone.

You're the one who doesn't believe Scripture.

Mal. 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Psa. 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

So what people who believe in Limited atonement need to do is, instead of trying the change the Bible to fit their understanding they need to change THEIR understanding to fit the Bible.

We already do that.
The BIBLE teaches limited atonement.
And so we have changed our understanding to accept that.

You want us to REJECT what the Bible teaches.

But they won't do it. So it won't do any good to tell them what the Bible says...EXCEPT that it's the TRUTH and it MUST be repeated. God bless.

YOU are the one who refuses to discuss what the Bible says.

 

[Theo1689]

Lol. S-o-o which words have I changed in the above verses, brightflame? NONE of them. NOT ONE.

Let's see....

You have CHANGED "world" to "whole world"...
You have CHANGED "world" to "every single individual"...
You have CHANGED "redemption" to "OFFERED redemption"...

You need to remember one thing; in order to change Scripture, people FIRST HAVE to KNOW WHAT the verse means as written.

... which you clearly don't.

1) 1 They've turned 1 Tim. 10 which reads, "...who is the Savior of ALL men, and ESPECIALLY those who believe into:
Who is the Savior of ONLY those who believe and especially of only those who believe." lol. It's not only nonsensical it's redundant.

This is a logical fallacy known as "straw-man".

2) They've changed 1 Jn 2:2 which reads, "He is the atononing sacrifice for our sins, and not only for OUR sins but ALSO for for the sins of the WHOLE WORlD"
into;

"He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not only for OUR sins but ALSO for OUR sins." lol.

This is a logical fallacy known as "straw-man".

But that's what happens when they change the words"whole world" to mean, "Only the sins of the elect." NONSENSE. I can show you every verse that they twist into nonsense but it would take a lot of time. They are turning GOD into an absolute fool by turning his words into nonense. People SHOULD gett the picture by now of what trying to change the Bible does.

"Nonense"?

 

[Theo1689]

People who are THAT interested in changing the Bible will NEVER admit their errors even if you DO quote the whole Bible to them!

I agree...
You will NEVER admit your errors...

That's an exercise in utility

"An exercise in utility"?

That's "nonense" (to use your word...)

Seriously, I don't think you understand English well enough to understand the Bible.

because people who do that do not have the Holy Spirit.

I agree... You certainly don't.

Jude 19, "These are the people who divide you, those who follow mere natural instincts but do NOT have the Spirit."

Describing yourself.

 

[brightfame52]

Lol. S-o-o which words have I changed in the above verses, brightflame? NONE of them. NOT ONE.

You need to remember one thing; in order to change Scripture, people FIRST HAVE to KNOW WHAT the verse means as written. So people who believe in limited atonement KNOW what those verses mean AS WRITTEN. They just don't like them. So they HAVE to REDEFINE words, which they ADMIT the do. Here is the nonsense that theyv'e made of Scripture:

1) 1 They've turned 1 Tim. 10 which reads, "...who is the Savior of ALL men, and ESPECIALLY those who believe into:
Who is the Savior of ONLY those who believe and especially of only those who believe." lol. It's not only nonsensical it's redundant.

2) They've changed 1 Jn 2:2 which reads, "He is the atononing sacrifice for our sins, and not only for OUR sins but ALSO for for the sins of the WHOLE WORlD"
into;

"He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not only for OUR sins but ALSO for OUR sins." lol.

But that's what happens when they change the words"whole world" to mean, "Only the sins of the elect." NONSENSE. I can show you every verse that they twist into nonsense but it would take a lot of time. They are turning GOD into an absolute fool by turning his words into nonense. People SHOULD gett the picture by now of what trying to change the Bible does.

This the fact that you teach that Christ died for all mankind denotes your twist.

 

[Theo1689]

Don't worry, edit I know that the word "world" in Scripture means everyone in the world,

NO Greek lexicon provides that PHONEY daffy-nishun you are providing.

This is proof that YOU are the one "twisting Scripture".

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Well, I'll pray that the Holy Spirit fixes your theology, and softens your heart so that you can learn to express charity to your fellow Christians.



You're describing yourself, of course.



YOU'RE the one with "nonsensical changes".

YOU change "world" to "whole world".
YOU change "world" to "every single individual".
YOU change "redemption" to "OFFER of redemption".

YOU are the one "changing" and "twisting" Scripture.

But actually I occasionally do like to have fun with people who believe in limited atonement like I like to have fun with atheists. So I'll ask you some questions:

When James 4:4 tells us not to be friends with the world, does he mean not to be friends with the elect?

How about when Jesus tells us in Jn 15:19 that we don't belong to the world, does he mean we don't belong with the elect?

Or how about when Jesus says in Jn 17;9 that he's not praying for the world, does he mean he's not praying for only the elect?

Or do you just change word definitions only when it suits YOUR desires?