Limited Atonement didn't come from Calvin or Scripture

[Theo1689]

Wrong

Salvation is limited to those who believe not God's love

Is that even supposed to make sense?
Salvation is limited to those who DON'T believe?!

remember BDAG refuted you

How can I "remember" something that DOESN'T EXIST?

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

I highlighted the part you keep IGNORING.

(You're welcome.)

John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.

So is "every single individual" saved?
YOU stand refuted.

John 1:29 (KJV)
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Great!
So everyone's sin is taken away, and so no one has any reason to end up in hell.

Yeah, I don't think so.

John 12:47 clearly shows world includes unbelievers

John 12:47–48 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the”

Let's see...
It says he doesn't judge unbelievers ("and believe not").
But that he does judge the "world".
Therefore, "world" CANNOT include "unbelievers", because it just says that he DOESN'T judge them!

and how you can claim

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

is not parallel to

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

is a great mystery

How you can claim they ARE "parallel" is "a great mystery".

But as we've already seen, you think you never have to prove anything, you can simply CLAIM it.

No wonder your theology is so messed up.

 

[preacher4truth]

See 1Cor 3:6-11

I'm familiar with that passage. Instead of pointing me to another passage address the ones I've given wherein I've derived the conclusion mentioned in my prior response.

 

[Kampioen]

Let's see...
It says he doesn't judge unbelievers ("and believe not").
But that he does judge the "world".
Therefore, "world" CANNOT include "unbelievers", because it just says that he DOESN'T judge them!

A fireman doesn't come to judge people but to save all. Thus just because some libertarianly don't come and thus don't get saved doesn't mean he didn't come to save them. ...

The same for Jesus. Jesus didn't come to judge the deniers or anybody, thus He came to save them too as included with the all the world. They will just be judged later or some other way for libertarianly opting out.

John 12:47 (KJV) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[Theo1689]

A fireman doesn't come to judge people but to save all. Thus just because some libertarianly don't come and thus don't get saved doesn't mean he didn't come to save them. ...

God's not a "fireman", and firemen didn't create the people in the burning house.

So get back to me when you have a SCRIPTURAL teaching.

The same for Jesus. Jesus didn't come to judge the deniers or anybody, thus He came to save them too as included with the all the world. They will just be judged later or some other way for libertarianly opting out.

John 12:47 (KJV) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Okay, so PROVE to me that "world" means "every single individual", instead of simply ASSUMING it.

 

[Kampioen]

God's not a "fireman", and firemen didn't create the people in the burning house.

So get back to me when you have a SCRIPTURAL teaching.

Okay, so PROVE to me that "world" means "every single individual", instead of simply ASSUMING it.

Nah. I debunked your claim.

 

[preacher4truth]

John 12:47 (KJV) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

The logical conclusion of your errant view is that Jesus can't judge unbelievers so they'll skip right into heaven unscathed.

 

[Kampioen]

The logical conclusion of your errant view is that Jesus can't judge unbelievers so they'll skip right into heaven unscathed.

No. The obvious conclusion is that Jesus came to save them but they refused. It doesn't have to mean He let them into heaven scott free nor that He didn't die for them. He just the equivalent of shook the dust off His feet and moved on. He just will judge them later or they will be judged some other way. It's an easy conclusion.

Matthew 10:14 (KJV) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 

[Theo1689]

No. The obvious conclusion is that Jesus came to save them but they refused.

I don't find that the least bit "obvious".
And as I've stated before, my experience is that people claim things are "obvious" simply when they have no actual evidence.

Please show me from the BIBLE where it says that Jesus came to save someone (perhaps "Michael"), but that person "refused". I've NEVER found that in Scripture, and that seems to be a problem when you claim it is "obvious".

 

[TomFL]

I'm familiar with that passage. Instead of pointing me to another passage address the ones I've given wherein I've derived the conclusion mentioned in my prior response.

Quoting Romans does nothing to prove Paul did not introduce the the gospel at Corinth nor did 1Cor 15

However

1 Cor. 3:6–12 —KJV
“I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;”

establishes the fact Paul did

“I have planted. The apostle here compares the establishment of the church at Corinth to the planting of a vine, a tree, or of grain. The figure is taken from agriculture, and the meaning is obvious. Paul established the church. He was the first preacher in Corinth; and if any distinction was due to any one, it was rather to him than to the teachers who had laboured there subsequently; but he regarded himself as worthy of no such honour as to be the head of a party, for it was not himself, but God who had given the increase.”

(Albert Barnes, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2006), paragraph 17248.)

 

[TomFL]

Just because I reject your errant interpretation, doesn't mean that I "ignored the scripture".



YOU are the one who keeps claiming that "world" means, "every single individual", exhaustively. So this passage disproves YOUR false claim.

YOU are the one who "ignored the scripture" here, not me.




You're right... John 12:47-48 is NOT a "parallel" to John 3:16.

But again, you seem to want to simply ASSUME that it is, and then SHIFT the burden of proof onto me to "disprove" your ASSUMPTION.

You never have to "prove" anything.
Only I have to "prove" things.
Do you understand the concept of "double standards"?



What John is writing here that God's love is not limited to just Jews, but extends to GENTILES as well (hence, "world").

But this very passage LIMITS Gods love to the "believers in him".''

You still have not addressed the passage and offer only a bald denial

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

Why does Christ not Judge the unbeliever ?

Are unbelievers not part of the world ?

and again these are clearly parallel

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”



John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

denial of this unconvincing

and God's love is to the world

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

World is not a synonym for believer and cannot exclude unbelievers

as BDAG clearly affirms

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

 

[TomFL]

I don't find that the least bit "obvious".
And as I've stated before, my experience is that people claim things are "obvious" simply when they have no actual evidence.

Please show me from the BIBLE where it says that Jesus came to save someone (perhaps "Michael"), but that person "refused". I've NEVER found that in Scripture, and that seems to be a problem when you claim it is "obvious".

2 Th. 2:10 —ESV
“and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

 

[preacher4truth]

Quoting Romans does nothing to prove Paul did not introduce the the gospel at Corinth nor did 1Cor 15

Um, what?

The above makes zero sense.

Instead of banging your keyboard in blind assuming zeal that all that Calvinists say has to be wrong, why not try sticking to what I (and others) have actually argued?

The above isn't it.

Your propensity in perpetually pitting Scripture against Scripture is sad to witness!

 

[guest1]

I don’t know where the belief in Limited atonement came from but it certainly didn’t come from Calvin. Calvin believed in infant baptismal REGENERATION which is actually universal salvation, not election or limited atonement. So using Calvin’s name to describe election and limited atonement is a misnomer. Here’s what he said in His Institutes Bk. 4:Chapter 16 section 2:

"Scripture shows, first, that it points to that cleansing from sin which we obtain by the blood of Christ; and, secondly, to the mortification of the flesh, which consists in participation in his death, by which believers are regenerated to newness of life, and thereby to the fellowship of Christ…it is also a symbol to testify our religion to men."

Calvin’s contradictions:

1)He said that believers are regenerated to the newness of life.” Infants aren’t believers since they don’t even know who Jesus is.

2) Calvin said that he was converted between 1532-1533. Converted from what? Being regenerated when he was baptized as an infant?

3)Since Calvin said that infant baptism was of divine origin, then he supported baptizing ALL infants, which contradicts his claim that God only chose few to be saved. Thus, his belief in infant baptism is actually universal salvation rather than limited atonement and election since he said that people are regenerated at infant baptism.

4) It is well-known that Calvin believed and practiced infant baptism (as he says in this article as well) which contradicts his whole theology if he, infact, did believe in election and limited atonement, and is one of the reasons that he supported the murder of Servetus who didn’t support infant baptism.

John Calvin on Infant Baptism

Limited atonement has nothing to do with baptism and the doctrine comes from scripture.

Are goats sheep ? Yes or no

Jesus said that He laid down His life for the sheep . John 10:11.

In Matthew 25:31-46 when the Son of man returns He separates the goats from the sheep.The goats are on the left and here is what happens to the goats .

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

hope this helps !!!

 

[Theo1689]

You still have not addressed the passage and offer only a bald denial

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

It's YOUR proof-text.
YOU are the one who needs to "address" it, and prove your point, instead of simply quoting a verse without comment, and simply ASSUMING a meaning.

Yes, I know you think you NEVER have to "prove" anything, but I have to "prove" against your view. Sorry, that's not how it works.

Why does Christ not Judge the unbeliever ?

Are unbelievers not part of the world ?

I'm not here to answer your questions.

I'm here to see YOU prove your false claim that Christ died for "everyone".
But you don't want to do that.
Because you know you CAN'T.

and again these are clearly parallel

Why? Because you say so?
Sorry, that's not a good enough reason.

denial of this unconvincing

and God's love is to the world

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Still waiting for YOU to prove that "world" means "every single individual".
And still waiting for you to stop IGNORING "that whosoever believeth", which LIMITS the verses.

World is not a synonym for believer and cannot exclude unbelievers

as BDAG clearly affirms

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

Again, I highlighted the phrase you keep IGNORING.
(You're welcome.)

 

[Theo1689]

2 Th. 2:10 —ESV
“and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

Where does it say Jesus died for them?
NOWHERE.

Care to try again?

 

[Kampioen]

I don't find that the least bit "obvious".
And as I've stated before, my experience is that people claim things are "obvious" simply when they have no actual evidence.

Please show me from the BIBLE where it says that Jesus came to save someone (perhaps "Michael"), but that person "refused". I've NEVER found that in Scripture, and that seems to be a problem when you claim it is "obvious".

Christ came to save all the world but did not save all because some libertarianly refused to believe. The not judging just means He that some other means than Jesus judged them lost, so Jesus didn't save them.

John 12:47 (KJV) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Matthew 10:14 (KJV) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 

[Theo1689]

Christ came to save all the world but did not save all because some libertarianly refused to believe.

None of that is the least bit Biblical.

 

[TomFL]

It's YOUR proof-text.
YOU are the one who needs to "address" it, and prove your point, instead of simply quoting a verse without comment, and simply ASSUMING a meaning.

That is absurd I did address it. You ignored it but that seems to be your methodology -just ignore whatever is contrary to your view

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

unbelievers populate the world - any unbeliever

Yes, I know you think you NEVER have to "prove" anything, but I have to "prove" against your view. Sorry, that's not how it works.

Lol I did prove it. You just ignore proof

I'm not here to answer your questions.

I'm here to see YOU prove your false claim that Christ died for "everyone".
But you don't want to do that.
Because you know you CAN'T.

You did nothing to disprove anythjing. You simply denied the evidence

Why? Because you say so?
Sorry, that's not a good enough reason.



Still waiting for YOU to prove that "world" means "every single individual".
And still waiting for you to stop IGNORING "that whosoever believeth", which LIMITS the verses.



Again, I highlighted the phrase you keep IGNORING.
(You're welcome.)

And you are still ignoring BDAG

.
b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:4


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

of all mankind

Includes unbelievers

but especially of believers does not erase of all mankind

You have offered only denial

 

[Theo1689]

And you are still ignoring BDAG

.
b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:4

Nope, YOU are the one who is "still ignoring BDAG".
I highlighted the section you keep ignoring.

(You're welcome.)

 

[TomFL]

Where does it say Jesus died for them?
NOWHERE.

Care to try again?

all over the bible

You asked for a passage where men refused salvation

You got it

2 Th. 2:10 —ESV
“and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

The passage holds out their salvation had they they not refused the truth

To them to be saved Christ had to have died for them

You are refuted