My Recent Arrival at Christianity and Apologetics

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Some members here have been questioning my recent conversion to Christianity from atheism, and since I realize that my answer to that question is based in apologetics, I think it is appropriate that I conjoin the two matters.

I've been watching Christian apologists debate atheists on YouTube for years, and generally I have concluded that those debates are either draws or the atheist(s) have won them. I've also read books written by apologists and books written by atheists, and I have almost always agreed with the atheists' conclusions and have disagreed with the apologists' conclusions. It appeared to me at least that Christian truth claims are very questionable, and the truth claims of atheists are at least unrefuted, so the logical thing to do was to remain an atheist.

That situation changed about a year ago when I decided to debate some atheists playing "God's advocate." I hoped that doing so would help me to overcome my bias, and did it ever! I discovered that if I make a good-faith effort to defend Christianity against the criticisms of atheists using sound reasoning, then the fallacies and/or factual errors in many of the popular arguments against Christianity are exposed. For example, one atheist said he doubted the truth of Christianity because there are other religions in the world. I easily refuted that argument by pointing out that different competing religions can easily result from some people getting their theology wrong!

Now, refuting objections to Christianity does not really establish its truth, and I realized that I needed at least one good reason to conclude the truth of Christianity or its utility. The Christian God can act as a basis for why anything exists and as a "template" of the good people we should be. I realized those reasons were good enough for me, and here I am on "the other side."

Questions and comments are welcome.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Keep seeking I've been praying for you to encounter God.

I think you are closer but still there is a lot of self-righteous Pharisee stuff. We all struggle with this worst of all sins.

Ask God to reveal himself to you!
 
G

guest1

Guest
Some members here have been questioning my recent conversion to Christianity from atheism, and since I realize that my answer to that question is based in apologetics, I think it is appropriate that I conjoin the two matters.

I've been watching Christian apologists debate atheists on YouTube for years, and generally I have concluded that those debates are either draws or the atheist(s) have won them. I've also read books written by apologists and books written by atheists, and I have almost always agreed with the atheists' conclusions and have disagreed with the apologists' conclusions. It appeared to me at least that Christian truth claims are very questionable, and the truth claims of atheists are at least unrefuted, so the logical thing to do was to remain an atheist.

That situation changed about a year ago when I decided to debate some atheists playing "God's advocate." I hoped that doing so would help me to overcome my bias, and did it ever! I discovered that if I make a good-faith effort to defend Christianity against the criticisms of atheists using sound reasoning, then the fallacies and/or factual errors in many of the popular arguments against Christianity are exposed. For example, one atheist said he doubted the truth of Christianity because there are other religions in the world. I easily refuted that argument by pointing out that different competing religions can easily result from some people getting their theology wrong!

Now, refuting objections to Christianity does not really establish its truth, and I realized that I needed at least one good reason to conclude the truth of Christianity or its utility. The Christian God can act as a basis for why anything exists and as a "template" of the good people we should be. I realized those reasons were good enough for me, and here I am on "the other side."

Questions and comments are welcome.
I would love to hear our thoughts on Jesus and His claims to be God and if you affirm them or deny them and why. My son in law was also an atheist and became a Christian in England.
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Keep seeking I've been praying for you to encounter God.
I hope to encounter God even more often. Have you done the same?
I think you are closer but still there is a lot of self-righteous Pharisee stuff.
You'll need to explain this comment so I can reply.
We all struggle with this worst of all sins.
Can you explain how you struggle with sin? Personally, I have no trouble with living a sinless life. I give the glory to God for that. I pray you repent.
Ask God to reveal himself to you!
He reveals himself to all of us; we just need to be willing to listen. I think He wants you to listen to Him like I do.
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
I would love to hear our thoughts on Jesus and His claims to be God and if you affirm them or deny them and why.
Jesus is divine, of course, but he lived like we do here on earth for a short while to die for us and to save all those who repent and accept his righteousness. I believe God is grieved over the sin in the church and is calling us all to repent so that we are pure and show sinners that they can repent too. That's why I can affirm God through Christ because I see God's judgment on those "wolves in sheep's clothing."
My son in law was also an atheist and became a Christian in England.
Has he repented? There is no salvation without repentance.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I hope to encounter God even more often. Have you done the same?

I've spent thousands of hours in prayer and study, and many sacrifices through decades seeking God.

I don't say that to brag, just to point out I'm not a casual.

I have supernaturally encountered God a few times in those many years, as well as direct demonic attacks.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Some members here have been questioning my recent conversion to Christianity from atheism, and since I realize that my answer to that question is based in apologetics, I think it is appropriate that I conjoin the two matters.

I've been watching Christian apologists debate atheists on YouTube for years, and generally I have concluded that those debates are either draws or the atheist(s) have won them. I've also read books written by apologists and books written by atheists, and I have almost always agreed with the atheists' conclusions and have disagreed with the apologists' conclusions. It appeared to me at least that Christian truth claims are very questionable, and the truth claims of atheists are at least unrefuted,

That's generally an accurate assessment. Most of these Christians ARE wrong. And most of them are misrepresenting the truth faith.


And most who call themselves "Christians" have difficulty with honesty. This CARM site is a vivid testimony of that fact.


so the logical thing to do was to remain an atheist.

No, that wasn't logical. Assuming one side is right and the other side is wrong is the assumption of fools.

Both can't be right. Both can be wrong.



That situation changed about a year ago when I decided to debate some atheists playing "God's advocate." I hoped that doing so would help me to overcome my bias, and did it ever! I discovered that if I make a good-faith effort to defend Christianity against the criticisms of atheists using sound reasoning, then the fallacies and/or factual errors in many of the popular arguments against Christianity are exposed. For example, one atheist said he doubted the truth of Christianity because there are other religions in the world. I easily refuted that argument by pointing out that different competing religions can easily result from some people getting their theology wrong!

Now, refuting objections to Christianity does not really establish its truth, and I realized that I needed at least one good reason to conclude the truth of Christianity or its utility. The Christian God can act as a basis for why anything exists and as a "template" of the good people we should be. I realized those reasons were good enough for me, and here I am on "the other side."

Questions and comments are welcome.

The only thing that matters is whether Christ is in you. His sheep hear his voice.

Theology and apologetics is the wisdom of men which is foolishness to God.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Some members here have been questioning my recent conversion to Christianity from atheism, and since I realize that my answer to that question is based in apologetics, I think it is appropriate that I conjoin the two matters.

I've been watching Christian apologists debate atheists on YouTube for years, and generally I have concluded that those debates are either draws or the atheist(s) have won them. I've also read books written by apologists and books written by atheists, and I have almost always agreed with the atheists' conclusions and have disagreed with the apologists' conclusions. It appeared to me at least that Christian truth claims are very questionable, and the truth claims of atheists are at least unrefuted, so the logical thing to do was to remain an atheist.

That situation changed about a year ago when I decided to debate some atheists playing "God's advocate." I hoped that doing so would help me to overcome my bias, and did it ever! I discovered that if I make a good-faith effort to defend Christianity against the criticisms of atheists using sound reasoning, then the fallacies and/or factual errors in many of the popular arguments against Christianity are exposed. For example, one atheist said he doubted the truth of Christianity because there are other religions in the world. I easily refuted that argument by pointing out that different competing religions can easily result from some people getting their theology wrong!

Now, refuting objections to Christianity does not really establish its truth, and I realized that I needed at least one good reason to conclude the truth of Christianity or its utility. The Christian God can act as a basis for why anything exists and as a "template" of the good people we should be. I realized those reasons were good enough for me, and here I am on "the other side."

Questions and comments are welcome.
I was atheist and didnt believe in a god and was pressured by loved ones that I needed to get saved. Saved from what was always my comeback. So after much listening and debating I was curious enough to wonder if there really is a God for these were so automate that I come to Christ. I being not so closed minded to seek out if it is truth so I said a small prayer, and the prayer went exactly like this.

" OK if you are what people say you are, you are going to have to reveal yourself to me that I may know the truth."

That was the end of it for over a year and I was right back in my original mind after over a year noting changed until one day I was sitting in my easy chase having a beer and a cigarette and my four year old daughter climbed up in my lap looking me in the eye and said" -- Daddy, Jesus is crying when you do that.

I got furious and went right to my wife and asked what have you been teaching our child. She was like what do you mean? I told her what our daughter said. This was in 1974 and I was twenty seven years old. She looked at me with kind of an astonished look and said I never have said anything about Jesus to her so we went to our daughter and asked who taught her to say that.

Her reply sent a chill through me -- she said Jesus did!

Now I was really confused. So again I said OK God, if you have revealed yourself to my four year old daughter, why haven't you shown yourself to me. The answer came not by an audible voice but an inner voice that said, because you dont listen to Me and have closed Me out. And right there made a start to a quest to find out the truth of who God is for I did hear from Him as was promised if I would listen. That revelation happened in November of 1974.

I was twenty seven years old and didnt know how to read so I couldn't confirm from the Bible what others were saying about it so I got a bible, a KJV, a Thompson Chain study bible, and every evening after work, and I was a carpenter, my wife would sit and teach me to read. I know she got tired after weeks of running her finger along the words in the book that I may follow along where she would point out to me how it all works.

To this day I am still a slow reader and to tell you the truth I have read only one book from cover to cover in my life and it is the KJV. Over time I purchased different versions and compared texts and discovered that the Bible has been edited over and over, even the KJV is riddled with ( ) added from mans opinions. Got a lexicon, did some of my own studies and grew in knowledge. Started going to a church, doing the things they said I needed to do. Became deacon and Elder, they gave me an old 286 computer and I learned to spell, and even in that the spell check couldn't recognize data but with practice I got a little better and now I type the best I know how LOL. grammar is the pits and sometimes educated English people have a hard time trying to figure what I am trying to convey.

After a few years I began to teach classes starting with young marrieds, then became youth pastor. Then one day God moved me by an ex inmate who moved me by his testimony for he was sergeant of arms for the Hells Angels and how he escaped the brutal attack for departure. Very few came out alive when they tried to defect. And that started twenty five years of prison ministry and have been so blessed to see some lives change only because someone loved them enough to do something about if I could, and I did.


People see that as heady, egotistical, arrogant, blaspheme, you name it, and has expressed that regularly here in CARM for many years now: but for me it is the way of the Father who spoke to me one day and said listen to me be as I am, dont be as others be like Me.

And here I Am. Most never know what I Am means for they never have head from Him who they is supposed to be like Him.

Religious folk condemn me for having and doing the very same things Jesus did and mock, scorn, and hate me for the very same reason the same hated Jesus.

Just watch the replies to this very post and see how people falsley accuse me of being God, accuse me of being Jesus, accuse me of all kinds of blaspheme. When I look at it and compare my life with the life of Jesus I see no difference at all for we have the same Father. And I can tell you now, Jesus had the same experience when he heard from God himself in Matt 3:16 where everything was opened to him no different. When one hears God Himself everything changes for sure.

Churches, denominations, are for one thing and that is to promote their beliefs for a god and use the name of God for enterprise, and whoever is the best teacher and seller of God from a pulpit wins that competition, and that is exactly what these debates are about, competition for who has it right.

And have I noted a recent change in your attitude toward me?
 
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CrowCross

Super Member
Now, refuting objections to Christianity does not really establish its truth, and I realized that I needed at least one good reason to conclude the truth of Christianity or its utility.
All one has to do is read and understand Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 53 was written long before Jesus came on the scene and very accurately speaks of events that occurred through Christ Jesus which allowed for our great salvation.
Isaiah 53 is just one example using prophecy that shows the truth of Christianity.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
All one has to do is read and understand Isaiah 53.
Cant understand it at all least one is born of God to have His understanding of it where God is actually manifest in you that you may have His same mind.
Isaiah 53 was written long before Jesus came on the scene and very accurately speaks of events that occurred through Christ Jesus which allowed for our great salvation.
Actually Is 53 is about God and our relationship to Him. Jesus didnt even know God or His heaven until God came to him by His Spirit and opens all of who He is and His heaven in Jesus. This is the one who comes to man and opens up who He is not Jesus.

Jesus couldn't even save his own disciples for every single one of the flat out denied the ways of Jesus and not one came to his aid to be identified with him in his trials and tribulation. Is 53 is about God and you.
Isaiah 53 is just one example using prophecy that shows the truth of Christianity.
Only if you are that person of Christ that God puts in us all as He did in Adam, Abraham, Moses, Mary, Jesus in Matt 3:16, 120 in an upper room. All of these were saved by God to become like Him instead of the laws for self in their temples, and all today are the very same no different at all from these. If you are different from the way Jesus was in the Father then you are the one who wounds Him, brushes Him, and the chastisement of His pease seems to be of ones own beliefs for a god and in this establish their own salvation and their minds are not healed.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Cant understand it at all least one is born of God to have His understanding of it where God is actually manifest in you that you may have His same mind.

Actually Is 53 is about God and our relationship to Him. Jesus didnt even know God or His heaven until God came to him by His Spirit and opens all of who He is and His heaven in Jesus. This is the one who comes to man and opens up who He is not Jesus.

Jesus couldn't even save his own disciples for every single one of the flat out denied the ways of Jesus and not one came to his aid to be identified with him in his trials and tribulation. Is 53 is about God and you.

Only if you are that person of Christ that God puts in us all as He did in Adam, Abraham, Moses, Mary, Jesus in Matt 3:16, 120 in an upper room. All of these were saved by God to become like Him instead of the laws for self in their temples, and all today are the very same no different at all from these. If you are different from the way Jesus was in the Father then you are the one who wounds Him, brushes Him, and the chastisement of His pease seems to be of ones own beliefs for a god and in this establish their own salvation and their minds are not healed.
Might I suggest you actually read and understand Isaiah 53.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Religious folk condemn me for having and doing the very same things Jesus did and mock, scorn, and hate me for the very same reason the same hated Jesus.

They are blind and in darkness but they think they see.


24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, “Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner.” 25 He then answered, “Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?” 28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29 We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.” 30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him. 32 Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.” 34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out. 35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless.”
 

CrowCross

Super Member
And may I suggest that you receieve from God His mind that you may understand Is 53 in His light instead of your own.
Over the last centuries Isaiah 53 has been considered as the 5th Gospel because it is so accurate when it speaks of Jesus' as the suffering servant.

You said...."Actually Is 53 is about God and our relationship to Him." Perhaps you would like to start a new thread and go through the verses and show all of us why. My guess is that you can't and the reason being is that you probably read that statement somewhere and believed it and never really checked it out.
 

Bocco

Active member
Can you explain how you struggle with sin? Personally, I have no trouble with living a sinless life. I give the glory to God for that. I pray you repent.
You think you live a sinless life? Was this all your life or just now.

Do you consider others better than yourself? Is every thing you do, first thought of as to how it might effect others? Do you play your music too loud? Do you let your dog bark at night? Basically anything that is inconsiderate to others.

Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Your claim of living a sinless life is why someone else said to you: "there is a lot of self-righteous Pharisee stuff."

1 Kings 8:46 “When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin)

1John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
You think you live a sinless life? Was this all your life or just now.

Do you consider others better than yourself? Is every thing you do, first thought of as to how it might effect others? Do you play your music too loud? Do you let your dog bark at night? Basically anything that is inconsiderate to others.

Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Your claim of living a sinless life is why someone else said to you: "there is a lot of self-righteous Pharisee stuff."

1 Kings 8:46 “When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin)

1John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you since you can't stop sinning.

No wait, that's not what he said is it?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Over the last centuries Isaiah 53 has been considered as the 5th Gospel because it is so accurate when it speaks of Jesus' as the suffering servant.
From the last century people have formed their own opinions about Is 53 from lack in having from God that what Jesus received from Him in Matt 3:16 as God does in us all who has receieved Him to understand Is 53 is about you and who are you.

It is accurate to the religious minds who has not received from God that what Jesus received from Him. And that suffering servant is us all who has from Him that what Jesus had form Him as God demands of YOU. It isn't we who are of God who suffers, it is God Himself who suffers from lack in receiving Him as Jesus did. Cant know God at all without the same in you Who was in Jesus.

What good does it do to say you are of Christ and anointed of God as Jesus was if your not and Is 53 isn't for you but for someone else?
You said...."Actually Is 53 is about God and our relationship to Him." Perhaps you would like to start a new thread and go through the verses and show all of us why. My guess is that you can't and the reason being is that you probably read that statement somewhere and believed it and never really checked it out.
You can guess that I cant and when I do and have you reject the words in the book that says, be one in the Father as Jesus was one in Him in John 17. Cant see that can you?

Have the same mind of Christ that Jesus had, which is you anointed of God by the same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus doesnt mean anything for you does it?

And when you see Him as He is ye shall be like Him as well, 1 John 3, that might as well not have been written for you

And be ye therefore perfect even as your Father. in heaven is perfect as He perfected Jesus is out the window for you isn't it?

And the same signs follow us who do have His same mind as they followed Jesus who had Gods same mind. That doesn't even register for you to have them follow you as they did Jesus does it?

Is 53 is -- God is wounded for these transgression listed above, He is bruised for your iniquity to be as He is, Love, and the chastisement of His peace to have from Him that what Jesus had from Him isn't part of your doctrine where you control your gods and what you would have them be. You worship an idol, a man is you're God and not the One of Spirit who came to Jesus and opened up who He is and all of His heaven in that man.

He will do the same in you if you will let Him and if you do see Him as He is ye shall be like Him as well, 1 John 3. But that isn't going to happen ion your beliefs for a god is it?

You cant understand Is or any other least you have Gods same mind, born again to be like Him instead of your present beliefs for your gods.
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
That's generally an accurate assessment. Most of these Christians ARE wrong. And most of them are misrepresenting the truth faith.
That is a logical quandary for Christian faith. It seems reasonable that an all-powerful Christ could do better.
And most who call themselves "Christians" have difficulty with honesty. This CARM site is a vivid testimony of that fact.
I think that people incorrectly see Christian faith as blind faith, and sadly a view like that invites chicanery in the church. In other words, if people don't base their faith on reason and evidence, then they are easily misled by unscrupulous clerics.
No, that wasn't logical. Assuming one side is right and the other side is wrong is the assumption of fools.
I think you misunderstand what I meant when I said that being an atheist was the logical thing to do. What I meant is that it seemed logical at that time. It was only later that I realized I was wrong and that atheism isn't so logical after all.
Both can't be right. Both can be wrong.
It depends on what you mean by "both." If you are referring to both atheism and theism, then no, the Law of the Excluded Middle guarantees that both atheism and theism cannot be wrong because God either doesn't exist or he does. However, if you are referring to atheism and Christianity, then yes, both could be wrong if, say, Islam is true.
The only thing that matters is whether Christ is in you. His sheep hear his voice.
And those sheep follow their Shepherd obeying Him
Theology and apologetics is the wisdom of men which is foolishness to God.
I must disagree. After all, your statement here is theology, and you wouldn't want to tell people that what you just said is foolishness to God. Besides, I think God makes good use of theology and apologetics.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
That is a logical quandary for Christian faith. It seems reasonable that an all-powerful Christ could do better.
Christ is static, Gods anointing never changes, there is non greater than Love, for God is Love and man is the temple of Him, the place God resides, His heaven. .
I think that people incorrectly see Christian faith as blind faith, and sadly a view like that invites chicanery in the church. In other words, if people don't base their faith on reason and evidence, then they are easily misled by unscrupulous clerics.
So true!
I think you misunderstand what I meant when I said that being an atheist was the logical thing to do. What I meant is that it seemed logical at that time. It was only later that I realized I was wrong and that atheism isn't so logical after all.
I did the very same thing and discovered that there is noting logical about the supernatural.
It depends on what you mean by "both." If you are referring to both atheism and theism, then no, the Law of the Excluded Middle guarantees that both atheism and theism cannot be wrong because God either doesn't exist or he does. However, if you are referring to atheism and Christianity, then yes, both could be wrong if, say, Islam is true.
AN atheist isn't wrong, to them there is no god, a Christian isn't wrong for a Christian is exactly like our Father of heaven and perfect as He is perfect.
And those sheep follow their Shepherd obeying Him
And at some point if one continues in the Father and when, or if, one sees Him as He is and becomes like Him, 1 John 3, then we become the shepherd no different from the shepherd that Jesus was, Abraham was, Moses was, 120 were.
I must disagree. After all, your statement here is theology, and you wouldn't want to tell people that what you just said is foolishness to God. Besides, I think God makes good use of theology and apologetics.
Me to. It gives those who are actually Gods anointed as Jesus was Gods anointed a reason to flaunt our Fathers ways of Love instead of a theology where doctrines are formed from beliefs instead of the reality of God manifest in you.
 
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