Original Sin...

[Bob Carabbio]

Do you accept the Doctrine of Original Sin?

If so, what would you say the Doctrine of Original Sin teaches?

If you don't accept it; why not?

I accept the Doctrine of Original sin. After being here at CARM Forums for so long now, I think Original Sin (or the lack there-of) plays a Fundamental part concerning the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism; and let's say Traditionalism and other Liberal Christian beliefs. So I'll start out by saying the Doctrine of Original Sin teaches there are "Unconditional Consequences" dealt out because of the Fall of Man, which are a Generational Curse...

The "unconditional consequence" was that the EARTH was cursed (Gen 3:17), and made subject to "Vanity"(Rom 8:20).
Adam was NEVER "Cursed", nor did his HUMAN NATURE (which we all have) change at all.

Personally I never needed "Original SIN". I was entirely capable of supplying MY OWN SIN, in order to fall short of God's Glory and the mechanism of Temptation/SIN is detailed in James 1:14,15.

As Far as I'm concerned it's nothing but another "Theology", and whether "Arminianism", or "Calvinism", or "Catholicism" - whatever have any effect on it is unimportant.

 

[christ_undivided]

Are you t rully denying that God created the world thru Christ? Heb 1:2 NASB "through whom also he made the world"
Really, you want to question that?

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Jesus Christ is Eternal and fully God. Jesus was "not as an instrument, but as an efficient cause". You're application is a false gospel that dishonors Jesus Christ.

And you want to question Phil 2:7 NASB "He emptied Himself"? What are you arguing for? Othodoxy? Or the words of Scripture?

As I've told you before. "Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation," is a better translation and perfectly represents the use of κενόω here.

Go find your friend and ask him again.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Asked and answered not my fault you ignored the post and came back with your pat answer for everything.

ok. You can't say that I have not given you every opportunity to make some case. Not sure why you keep posting to me if you have no intention of telling me what your issue is

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Jesus Christ is Eternal and fully God. Jesus was "not as an instrument, but as an efficient cause". You're application is a false gospel that dishonors Jesus Christ.



As I've told you before. "Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation," is a better translation and perfectly represents the use of κενόω here.

Go find your friend and ask him again.

So you are not arguing with me, you just feelyou have a better understanding of Greek than the translaters of the New American Standard.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

ok. You can't say that I have not given you every opportunity to make some case. Not sure why you keep posting to me if you have no intention of telling me what your issue is

Asked and answered.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Asked and answered.

as you wish

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Thanks. When you've been here as long as some of us have, you've gotten your points down to a science. I usually say "These are the Theology Boards, not the Verbatim Verse Boards"; because people only want a word-for-word Verse which says what you are teaching...

I have a lot of sayings like this...

You seem to have some understanding about this place. In the two months I have been posting here, I think I have been polite and respectful to other posters and yet I am being treated in an abusive and dismissive way. Would you say that is just how this forum operates? Or am I doing something that provokes this kind of attack against me personally?

 

[ReverendRV]

You seem to have some understanding about this place. In the two months I have been posting here, I think I have been polite and respectful to other posters and yet I am being treated in an abusive and dismissive way. Would you say that is just how this forum operates? Or am I doing something that provokes this kind of attack against me personally?

Forums can be rough; but we can rise above the bad atmosphere...

 

[armylngst]

Interesting how you and others keep excluding the part that i keep reminding you of: because all sinned.
death reigned from Adam to moses because all sinned.

Yet you keep forgetting that none of that would matter if Adam NEVER sinned. Once again, you forget that Adam is the crux of it all, because God put him there. He was given dominion over creation. That is why Paul is clear that sin entered through the one man, and with sin, death. Death is not reintroduced every time someone sins. Sin and death have a clear entry into the world through Adam. Righteousness and life have a clear entry into the world through.in Christ.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

ok. You can't say that I have not given you every opportunity to make some case. Not sure why you keep posting to me if you have no intention of telling me what your issue is

If people are born alive(spiritually) why did Jesus teach “you must be born AGAIN” ? The reason everyone must be born again is because everyone is born spiritually dead as a result of Adam’s disobedience. That is why all DIE in Adam as all in Christ live through Jesus.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Yet you keep forgetting that none of that would matter if Adam NEVER sinned. Once again, you forget that Adam is the crux of it all, because God put him there. He was given dominion over creation. That is why Paul is clear that sin entered through the one man, and with sin, death. Death is not reintroduced every time someone sins. Sin and death have a clear entry into the world through Adam. Righteousness and life have a clear entry into the world through.in Christ.

you too? It says "death spread to all BECAUSE all sinned"
Why do you and others want to minimize this?
What is your doctrinal point you are protecting that is vulnerable to this truth: death spread to all BECAUSE all sinned?

Death entered thru Adam, but it did not spread from Adam. People did not catch death from Adam

 

[Alexander the adequate]

If people are born alive(spiritually) why did Jesus teach “you must be born AGAIN” ? The reason everyone must be born again is because everyone is born spiritually dead as a result of Adam’s disobedience. That is why all DIE in Adam as all in Christ live through Jesus.

Being born again is accomplished by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus referred to as the promise of the Father. This began on the day of pentecost for people alive on the earth at that time when they believed/received Jesus,

And so no, people are not born with Jesus indwelling them. I think we agree there.

 

[armylngst]

you too? It says "death spread to all BECAUSE all sinned"
Why do you and others want to minimize this?
What is your doctrinal point you are protecting that is vulnerable to this truth: death spread to all BECAUSE all sinned?

Death entered thru Adam, but it did not spread from Adam. People did not catch death from Adam

Scripture states it spread from Adam, because of Adam's sin. I mean, why do animals die? If one believes in the story of creation in Genesis, animals did not die until Adam sinned. Nothing died. This is also an indicator that God may have planned/determined Adam's sin, and the entrance of death into His creation by that sin. Why do you deny the sin nature? Why do you deny what Paul taught? Why do you deny what Jesus taught? Why do you deny God who wrote the Bible through men, and wrote the book of Hebrews? Paul stated that death reigned from Adam to Moses, even though there was no law. By there being no law, their was no accountable sin. So why did anyone die from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, when the law by which Paul said we came to know sin, was not given to us by God until Moses? Why did anyone die? Adam. Sin and death entered the world through Adam. And from that came the sin nature, which scripture says is death. Paul uses strong imagery of the sin nature. He used the image of one of the punishments for murder. The murderer is chained to the corpse of the one murdered, so the flesh can eat away at the murderer. A horrible way to die.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Scripture states it spread from Adam, because of Adam's sin. I mean, why do animals die? If one believes in the story of creation in Genesis, animals did not die until Adam sinned. Nothing died. This is also an indicator that God may have planned/determined Adam's sin, and the entrance of death into His creation by that sin. Why do you deny the sin nature? Why do you deny what Paul taught? Why do you deny what Jesus taught? Why do you deny God who wrote the Bible through men, and wrote the book of Hebrews? Paul stated that death reigned from Adam to Moses, even though there was no law. By there being no law, their was no accountable sin. So why did anyone die from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, when the law by which Paul said we came to know sin, was not given to us by God until Moses? Why did anyone die? Adam. Sin and death entered the world through Adam. And from that came the sin nature, which scripture says is death. Paul uses strong imagery of the sin nature. He used the image of one of the punishments for murder. The murderer is chained to the corpse of the one murdered, so the flesh can eat away at the murderer. A horrible way to die.

why don't you refer to actual scripture instead of your interpretation of scripture and we can talk about them one at a time.

 

[Theo1689]

why don't you refer to actual scripture instead of your interpretation of scripture and we can talk about them one at a time.

So how come you get to interpret Scripture but we don't?
Your criticism is incredibly lame.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

So how come you get to interpret Scripture but we don't?
Your criticism is incredibly lame.

Your attack on me is misplaced. My request was for the poster to cite the scriptures they relied upon so we could discuss those scriptures instead of just the ideas.
Do you find that request offensive?

 

[Theo1689]

Your attack on me is misplaced.

You are incorrect.

My request was for the poster to cite the scriptures they relied upon so we could discuss those scriptures instead of just the ideas.

You have had Scriptures cited before, but you simply ignore them, and request they be reposted over and over. It's a stupid game.

And then you fallaciously try to argue that your interpretation of Scripture is simply "Scripture", but our Scripture is only "interpretation". It's a worthless comment that anyone can use against anyone else.

Do you find that request offensive?

What I find offensive is when people provide Scriptures for you, and then you pretend they didn't and keep asking them to provide what they've already provided you. That's simply laziness.

And then you make false accusations that we "ignore" your proof-text, when we don't.
That's what I find "offensive".

 

[Alexander the adequate]

You are incorrect.



You have had Scriptures cited before, but you simply ignore them, and request they be reposted over and over. It's a stupid game.

And then you fallaciously try to argue that your interpretation of Scripture is simply "Scripture", but our Scripture is only "interpretation". It's a worthless comment that anyone can use against anyone else.



What I find offensive is when people provide Scriptures for you, and then you pretend they didn't and keep asking them to provide what they've already provided you. That's simply laziness.

And then you make false accusations that we "ignore" your proof-text, when we don't.
That's what I find "offensive".

ok

 

[Theo1689]

ok

Just like Seth used to respond.

 

[Exeter]

You are incorrect.
You have had Scriptures cited before, but you simply ignore them, and request they be reposted over and over. It's a stupid game.
And then you fallaciously try to argue that your interpretation of Scripture is simply "Scripture", but our Scripture is only "interpretation". It's a worthless comment that anyone can use against anyone else.
What I find offensive is when people provide Scriptures for you, and then you pretend they didn't and keep asking them to provide what they've already provided you. That's simply laziness.
And then you make false accusations that we "ignore" your proof-text, when we don't.
That's what I find "offensive".

Trollish methinks.