Punk-ness

stiggy wiggy said:
Do you think that when Armstrong walked on the moon he was walking in the sky? Do you think Christian believe one can reach heaven in a rocket ship?
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We do say that the moon is in the sky. We say that the sun is in the sky. Would we say Armstrong was walking in the sky? Probably not, we couldn't see him.
The sky is what we see when we go outside and look up.
When people say that so-and-so has gone up to heaven, where do they mean?
If you can't reach heaven in a rocket ship, why be concerned about the tower of Babel?
 
Tiburon said:
We do say that the moon is in the sky. We say that the sun is in the sky. Would we say Armstrong was walking in the sky? Probably not, we couldn't see him.
The sky is what we see when we go outside and look up.
When people say that so-and-so has gone up to heaven, where do they mean?
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UP? Who says that? They say so-and-o has gone to heaven.

Tiburon said:
If you can't reach heaven in a rocket ship, why be concerned about the tower of Babel?
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I'm not. You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

Do you think Christian believe one can reach heaven in a rocket ship?
 
treeplanter said:
Looking in the mirror, I see...

I don't want to misrepresent you
I need to be certain that I understand your position

Please, for the love of God, just give me an unconditional, concise, categorical YES or NO

Do you believe that it is morally acceptable to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon another?

YES

or

NO???
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I'm reminded of the bugs bunny and daffy duck yes/no routine here.
 
5wize said:
So glad you asked that question.

I could care less if you believed in resurrections, talking snakes, possessed pigs squealing to their watery grave, virgin births, fruit with knowledge properties, etc, etc. Christianity is really one of the more entertaining set of supernatural narratives when studied.

Here's the problem. It's not a self contained belief system. If you take on the intellectual vestments of this personal belief, and you yourself are the one punished for failing to follow that which you took on to believe for yourself, you and me never cross swords.

But that's not what you believe is it. When you took on the Christian faith you also took on the belief in the damnation of the entire world and the obligation to tell us so. If you preach this nonsense into our shared social space, you have entailed me and I will doggedly denounce it everywhere I find it.... and hold your feet to the fire to prove it, because it is important.
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Can I ask an honest question. Would you have this same conversation say with your mom or dad , sibling or child if they believed in God . Would the conversation be the same , toned down with a dialogue and an exchange of ideas because you love snd respect them or would it be just like it is here ?

And I’m not interested in debating it with you just curious if this online environment is different from your personal life and loved ones .

Thanks !
 
Chalcedon said:
Can I ask an honest question. Would you have this same conversation say with your mom or dad , sibling or child if they believed in God . Would the conversation be the same , toned down with a dialogue and an exchange of ideas because you love snd respect them or would it be just like it is here ?

And I’m not interested in debating it with you just curious if this online environment is different from your personal life and loved ones .

Thanks !
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Some yes and some no. My wife is Catholic. My children went to private Catholic k12. My wife and I have very productive conversations because regardless of the dogmatic theology, she knows it has its human limits in her own experience. Case and point: Just the other day she claimed how depressing it would be if this life amounted to nothing. I was able to relate to her how much more attached I feel to her and the children and our life together knowing that this might be it. I cling to us with everything I have. She didn't need to change her mind for me. She just needed to understand that this life has value to me.

With my children I used a more rhetorical questioning. One has turned away from theology on her own after the fact. She was the one I thought never would. My son was always very excited by philosophy, psychology and classical thinking. His library is filled with places I never been from Marcus Aurelius, Lao Tzu, to Jordan Petersen. He still flirts with the divine. I think its awesome.

There are some on the forum, such as Five Solas and a few others here that I have very respectful conversations with because it seems we both realize that we are facing a mystery.

What I oppose vehemently is primarily found in the fundamental evangelical, the Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" type. The know it all's that could not possibly know whether what they threaten us with, what they inject into the social narrative, is actually true or not. I find it socially irresponsible and dangerous, and I find most of them woefully uneducated in the human origins, the twists and turns of hubris and ego, of the scriptures they use to support it.
 
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5wize said:
Some yes and some no. My wife is Catholic. My children went to private Catholic k12. My wife and I have very productive conversations because regardless of the dogmatic theology, she knows it has its human limits in her own experience. Case and point: Just the other day she claimed how depressing it would be if this life amounted to nothing. I was able to relate to her how much more attached I feel to her and the children and our life together knowing that this might be it. I cling to us with everything I have. She didn't need to change her mind for me. She just needed to understand that this life has value to me.

With my children I used a more rhetorical questioning. One has turned away from theology on her own after the fact. She was the one I thought never would. My son was always very excited by philosophy, psychology and classical thinking. His library is filled with places I never been from Marcus Aurelius, Lao Tzu, to Jordan Petersen. He still flirts with the divine. I think its awesome.

What I oppose vehemently is primarily found in the fundamental evangelical, the Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" type. The know it all's that could not possibly know whether what they threaten us with, what they inject into the social narrative, is actually true or not. I find it socially irresponsible and dangerous, and I find most of them woefully uneducated in the human origins, the twists and turns of hubris and ego, of the scriptures they use to support it.
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Thank you I appreciate you sharing that with me.

I have recently had the reverse with my youngest two who are now 24 and 31. All raised in Christian home nothing forced on them with their beliefs it’s not my style . My youngest son in now agnostic and I love him the same no differently and we golf all the time together now . I don’t push anything on him snd I understand some of the hypocrisy he saw with some leaders when he was a drummer on the worship team .

My youngest daughter now 31 was even more heart breaking . She was a missionary who met a former atheist converted to Christianity in England who was her teacher snd they married . The perfect marriage and relationship we all though . Fast forward they are now divorced and she is in a relationship with a woman . I feared suicide because I heard the horror stories in Christian homes who treated them as outcasts and judging them linking them in the streets . My wife and I are just the opposite are are loving her through this time unconditionally. And I’ve had allot if sleepless nights with many tears over the heart ache on the family . My other son in law is a pastor and made a “ moral “ stand . So I’m dealing with that and trying to correct him about Gods love . He knows that about me because when he was abusive I loved him throughly that time snd didn’t condemn him so I have to remind him of that . He even told me he could never do that if it was his daughter and son law . So life has its curve balls but my motto is to be loving to others and be forgiving knowing my own shortcomings . This life is not easy whether one is an agnostic , atheist or a Christian . I’m also not one who judges anyones life . My actions speak louder than words . And people in mice life dont care how much we know until they know how much we care . So that’s what I’m about first and foremost.
 
treeplanter said:
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You've already been given the only answer from me on this issue that I think matters.
If you don't understand it, then read it several times. The concept is pretty straightforward.

If you're not able to handle it, I'd say that you have an ego problem.

Get over yourself.
 
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treeplanter said:
Do you believe that it is morally acceptable to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others?

Please answer with a simple YES or NO
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????‍♂️

Learn how to understand what you're detailed Tree! You clearly lack the courage necessary to reason through what doesn't fit your biases and preconceptions.
 
Chalcedon said:
Thank you I appreciate you sharing that with me.

I have recently had the reverse with my youngest two who are now 24 and 31. All raised in Christian home nothing forced on them with their beliefs it’s not my style . My youngest son in now agnostic and I love him the same no differently and we golf all the time together now . I don’t push anything on him snd I understand some of the hypocrisy he saw with some leaders when he was a drummer on the worship team .

My youngest daughter now 31 was even more heart breaking . She was a missionary who met a former atheist converted to Christianity in England who was her teacher snd they married . The perfect marriage and relationship we all though . Fast forward they are now divorced and she is in a relationship with a woman . I feared suicide because I heard the horror stories in Christian homes who treated them as outcasts and judging them linking them in the streets . My wife and I are just the opposite are are loving her through this time unconditionally. And I’ve had allot if sleepless nights with many tears over the heart ache on the family . My other son in law is a pastor and made a “ moral “ stand . So I’m dealing with that and trying to correct him about Gods love . He knows that about me because when he was abusive I loved him throughly that time snd didn’t condemn him so I have to remind him of that . He even told me he could never do that if it was his daughter and son law . So life has its curve balls but my motto is to be loving to others and be forgiving knowing my own shortcomings . This life is not easy whether one is an agnostic , atheist or a Christian . I’m also not one who judges anyones life . My actions speak louder than words . And people in mice life dont care how much we know until they know how much we care . So that’s what I’m about first and foremost.
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You are a good man, Chancedon. Love is what love does, and you sound full to the brim with it. I've heard it said when it comes to organizations, including families, that "The Fish Stinks From the Head Down". You are keeping your family intact with your love. That is your only responsibility. Offering them a safe place in your heart to figure out their life. Between love and prayer, love is your best bet, but prayer helps clarify what you need to do. Continue to do so and leave the rest to whatever power has been punted to the future.

My daughter was chastised once by her boss (fast food counter) because she was caught on camera passing an amount of marijuana to someone over the counter. She came home upset and told me about it. We worked through it. When I later had a casual conversation with her boss about it, I thanked him for his tempered reaction to the event. He was shocked that I even knew. He said, "Your daughter told you that?". I told him if you don't shame the ones you love about their life (because yes, life is difficult as hell), they will feel safe and loved, and they will come to you, and you may not have to give them up to the world because they could not come to you. Stay away from shame. It tears and severs. Your son in law needs to learn that.

Interesting..... I'm a drummer too. Kudos to your son.
 
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treeplanter said:
There are no biases or preconceptions involved, Steve

I am simply asking a very straightforward question

Do you believe that it is morally acceptable to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others?
Please answer with a simple YES or NO
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I've already given you the truth.
Your continued demand for a yes/no response is definitive proof to me that you lack the necessary tools to reason clearly.
 
5wize said:
You are a good man, Chancedon. Love is what love does, and you sound full to the brim with it. I've heard it said when it comes to organizations, including families, that "The Fish Stinks From the Head Down". You are keeping your family intact with your love. That is your only responsibility. Offering them a safe place in your heart to figure out their life. Between love and prayer, love is your best bet, but prayer helps clarify what you need to do. Continue to do so and leave the rest to whatever power has been punted to the future.

My daughter was chastised once by her boss (fast food counter) because she was caught on camera passing an amount of marijuana to someone over the counter. She came home upset and told me about it. We worked through it. When I later had a casual conversation with her boss about it, I thanked him for his tempered reaction to the event. He was shocked that I even knew. He said, "Your daughter told you that?". I told him if you don't shame the ones you love about their life (because yes, life is difficult as hell), they will feel safe and loved, and they will come to you, and you may not have to give them up to the world because they could not come to you. Stay away from shame. It tears and severs. Your son in law needs to learn that.

Interesting..... I'm a drummer too. Kudos to your son.
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Thank you my older son was / is a professional drummer in Nashville . My all time favorite drummer passed away Neil Pert. I love their music . I was just listening to yyz and free will on my way home from work yesterday:)
 
Chalcedon said:
Thank you my older son was / is a professional drummer in Nashville . My all time favorite drummer passed away Neil Pert. I love their music . I was just listening to yyz and free will on my way home from work yesterday:)
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I saw their final concert tour here in Detroit before Neil passed. I was always impressed with him, but was more of a Zep fan. Bonham was my mentor. Steve Gadd as well. I'll be traveling to Nashville to enjoy some music this summer. May I ask here or privately where I can see him/band?, unless he's studio.
 
treeplanter said:
Do you believe that it is morally acceptable to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others?

YES or NO, Steve?
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I've already given you the truth.
Your continued demand for a yes/no response is definitive proof to me that you lack the necessary tools to reason clearly.
 
5wize said:
I saw their final concert tour here in Detroit before Neil passed. I was always impressed with him, but was more of a Zep fan. Bonham was my mentor. Steve Gadd as well. I'll be traveling to Nashville to enjoy some music this summer. May I ask here or privately where I can see him/band?, unless he's studio.
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I’ll pm you - and yes bonham was amazing those were my 2 favorites.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
UP? Who says that? They say so-and-o has gone to heaven.



I'm not. You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

Do you think Christian believe one can reach heaven in a rocket ship?
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I've heard many people say that.
To answer your question. No. But I haven't asked every Christian.
 
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