Bonnie
Super Member
Jesus Himself called the contents of the cup the "fruit of the vine" AFTER He had given His disciples the cup and bade them to drink from it. So yes, it was STILL WINE. But the RCC ignores this. Why?
Question for Catholics about the 4 Marian dogmas
- Thread starter Bonnie
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Well, considering what the RCC demands they believe, and the cavalier way that the RCC treats the Word of God, I can understand why that would be so.
But don't despair – I was also agnostic before the Holy Spirit got hold of me!
--Rich
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Yes, really.
Does he now? Or is it possible that the poster was either being factious, or using hyperbole to make a point? Or maybe the poster was being serious. Did you ask the poster to clarify if that is what he really believes?
Suppose he does believe that. So what? How does that effect MY arguments?
Again, even if this is true--what does it have to do with me and my arguments?
That Scripture within the context of the Church is read in context and not just a few verses. I can't control what individuals do. The accusation, if I understood it correctly was that at Mass only a few Scripture verses are read, and out of context. It was THAT accusation that I was responding to.
Because it does not fit their fairy-tale. That is, when Scripture conflicts with what they want people to believe, the Word of God gets ignored.
--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Bonnie,Yes.John 3:16 and Acts 16, the place where Paul tells the Philippian jailer how to be saved were certainly ignored by Catholics.
Actually Catholics do, about what we must believe to have eternal life--and it is NOT by believing the 4 Marian Dogmas.
Then why were my quotes of John 3:16 and from Acts 16 about how we are saved ignored, especially when I asked where Jesus and Paul added the 4 Marian Dogmas as to how we are saved...no Catholic responded that I saw.
So, how would Catholics interpret John 3:16 where Jesus says if we believe in Him we have eternal life...and where Paul told the Philippian jailer, when he asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Remember what Paul said?
Both verses are super easy to understand and interpret. But did either Jesus or Paul add that the 4 Marian Dogmas must be believed in order to be saved?
Tell you what: if I ever want the Lutheran interpretation of the Bible I will either ask you for it, or go to the Lutheran boards and start a thread.
Yep the contents is wine but RCs belief it is His blood. Because they like to think they have a closer relationship with Jesus by eating and drinking Him. I remember as a very young girl believing I was receiving Jesus and never understood why He was never there for me in toxic family. Later on after being saved, He showed me He couldn't change my parents, they had to want to change, but He gave me an ability to laugh through tough times.
I will add He gave me a loving grandmother and the nuns taught me not to hate. They were strong on that point, that hate is very bad for a person. Now I understand I have Jesus and am saved, others are not blessed with salvation. It explains so much about why they do what they do.
No pilgrim;
they believe what "That which is Written" says
you yourself have even quoted Isaiah
To the law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.
if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.
and also Amos
Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God will do nothing,
but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
so show us where these things about Mary are revealed by the Prophets
1. Mary's IC
2. Mary's PV
3. Mary as mother of God. This is true in one sense, since she is Jesus' mother and Jesus is God,
but Catholics mean that she has a special divine role forever as His mother so she can intercede for us.
4. Bodily assumption of Mary into heaven--
The Roman Catholics cannot show the Marian doctrines from the Bible, but to them it does not matter what the Bible says. As sola ecclesiasts, if the RCC says it is true, it is true. Period. End of matter. Had the RCC stuck with a geocentric universe, Catholics would still be arguing that the outer planets stop, reverse course for a while, stop again, then continue on their merry ways.
--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
Bonnie said:
Yes.
Actually Catholics do, about what we must believe to have eternal life--and it is NOT by believing the 4 Marian Dogmas.
Then why were my quotes of John 3:16 and from Acts 16 about how we are saved ignored, especially when I asked where Jesus and Paul added the 4 Marian Dogmas as to how we are saved...no Catholic responded that I saw.
So, how would Catholics interpret John 3:16 where Jesus says if we believe in Him we have eternal life...and where Paul told the Philippian jailer, when he asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Remember what Paul said?
Both verses are super easy to understand and interpret. But did either Jesus or Paul add that the 4 Marian Dogmas must be believed in order to be saved?
do you think that only Lutheran believers don't believe in your Marian dogmas?
no Christian does. that is not required for anyone's salvation, your Marian beliefs are not found in scripture.
Nondenom40
Well-known member
Bonnie
Super Member
I did not interpret anything, just quoted 2 Bible verses, and asked where either has the 4 Marian Dogmas listed as necessary to believe to be saved. Quoting those and asking my question have zero to do with my being Lutheran. As I think you know.
Stella1000
Well-known member
The bible teaches a geocentric universe. Joshua 10:12-13. Ecclesiastes 1:5. 1 Chronicles 16:30 just to name a few. Even today Protestant creationists hold to this scriptural 'truth'. It just shows that scripture needs interpretation in the light of the times. I think your mockery of Catholicism is hypocritical.
So Mary is in earth centred. Not sure about how your are connecting that to your Marian doctrines. No they need to be understood in the times they were written and then applied to today. Not the other way around. I am laughing at RCs making out others are hypocritical.
those who do have a relationship with Him know it isn't literal eating and drinking of Him.
Total agreement. You only truly know Him after the HS takes you out of the RCC and into His loving arms.
None of these show geocentricity. Would you accuse the U. S. Naval Observatory of being geocentric because it reports the times of "sunrise" and "sunset"? (cf. Eccl 1:5)
Broad-brushing much? I know many Creationists who would scoff at your statement.
Some people are just bound to see mockery everywhere. Tell me honestly, if the RCC – from pope to priest – said that the Earth was the center of the universe (not sure about de fide), would – not could, but would – you disagree?
--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Thanks again for your Lutheran expertise. I am sure it is especially useful on the Lutheran boards.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Actually---yes seriously.
Unfortunately in some Catholic quarters, Scripture "scholarship" is stuck in a time warp. For whatever reason they still think the year is 1960 and the Historical Critical Method is the next best thing since the Hula Hoop.
So I will agree with you there.
Nondenom40
Well-known member
Believing in a geocentric universe won't take you to hell. Comparing that to your marian dogmas is apples and oranges. And its not just some prots that hold that view today. There is some real science behind that theory. Personally i couldn't care less. To me its a petty issue compared to the utter theological falsehoods of all rc dogmas not just those associated with mary.
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