Romans 9, Esau, and reprobation

I don't have a chapter and verse for that statement; but neither can you produce one for the idea that God doesn't want such a universe.

You're appealing to silence.
Gen. 50:20, Ex. 10:1, Isa. 10:5-7, and Acts 4:27-28 are evidence that He "doesn't want such a universe".

We both arrive at our beliefs using abductive reasoning;

No, I get my beliefs from the BIBLE.

you have your interpretive framework and I have mine, and when we overlay our framework over the Bible, we see how well it does or doesn't explain all of the relevant data on God's providence. I'm confident my framework answers all of the data better than yours.

And I'm confident that you're wrong, since I follow the Bible, and you believe in unBiblical fairy tales like "free will".
 
From the Reformed perspective? Nothing that was memorable.

Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I wish God took away my ability to sin when I became a Christian, but apparently He left my free will intact. And since you're still capable of sinning, it looks like He left your free will intact too.

Where does the BIBLE teach, "sinning implies you have a free will"?
 
"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." (James 1:13-14)

That doesn't say ANYTHING about "sinning implies a free will".

And to believe in "free will", you have to IGNORE all the passages contrary to it.
 
I don't know, maybe we should ask a fish. But as another person said in response to you already, the ocean is itself a boundary, so whether the fish lives in an aquarium or roams freely in the ocean, one could make a case that it's still confined. Our very existence is built within limitations that we cannot transcend. But none of this gets to the issue specifically of free will.
There is a big difference between a fish bowl and an ocean.
Now I do understand our existence is built within limitations that we cannot transcend. One would be the ability to come to Christ without God granting that to us....Having mercy and compassion on whom He chooses to have mercy and compassion on. Romans 9:14.
 
The Calvinist interpretation of this chapter is so loaded with assumptions that it's hard to know where to start pointing them out.

Let's start with v. 12, "The elder shall serve the younger." How does the Calvinist doctrine of reprobation follow from this verse? How does a man in hell serve a man in heaven?

And after answering that, we can go ahead and ask the same question of the next OT verses that Paul uses to make his point (whatever that point may be). In fact, let's list them all here for perspective:

- "The elder shall serve the younger." (v. 12)

- "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (v. 13)

- "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (v. 15)

- "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." (v. 17)

- “I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.” (v. 25-26)

- "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.” (v. 27-28)

- “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.” (v. 29)

- "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” (v. 33)

Of all those OT quotes, the most favorite of Calvinists is v. 13. But it has already been pointed out on here before that Jesus says in 14:26 that we have to "hate" our relatives in order to be His disciples; and whatever Jesus means by the word "hate" in that verse, it's safe to assume it doesn't mean that we should desire for our father, mothers, children, etc. to burn in hell. Furthermore, the word "hate" is used in the Bible to refer to being disfavored, such as when it says that Leah was "hated" by Jacob (Gen. 29:31). No sensible commentator would suggest that Jacob must have hated Leah in the sense of desiring her destruction, which is what Calvinists insist it must mean in Romans 9:13.

So what else have the Calvinists got?

As we look over those other OT quotes from that chapter, how can the Calvinist doctrine of reprobation be inferred at all? Moreover, on what textual basis could we rule out an eschatological fulfillment of these verses? Doesn't it fit the flow of things so much better to assume Paul is talking about the eschaton, and that Jacob, Esau, and many of their descendants will be resurrected, and that Esau and his descendants will be pressed into servitude for Jacob and his descendants during the millennial reign of Christ? And that the land of Edom will be cursed during the millennium whereas the land of Israel will be blessed? And that the Gentiles among the nations who are raised will also be given places of honor in their respective lands so as to provoke the unrighteous among the Jews to jealousy?

If we read chapter 9 in the context of chapters 10-11 (especially 11), then doesn't this scenario fit the data so much better?
Have you ever actually read the books of Genesis and Exodus?

They're actually quite educational.

Jacob and Esau were not young men. They were old enough to have understood the family dynamics and the prophecies made over them.

The Pharoah was given 10 distinct opportunities to turn to YHVH and believe him.

After the death of the firstborn, he could have stopped, but he chased the Israeli people into the wilderness and then down into the red sea. Thus, he brought his destruction on himself by his own choosing.

Each man was given the opportunity to engage YHVH on his terms. They refused.
In the end, the prophecies regarding them were simply God saying what would happen, in advance, due to foreknowledge.
 
Have you ever actually read the books of Genesis and Exodus?

They're actually quite educational.

Jacob and Esau were not young men. They were old enough to have understood the family dynamics and the prophecies made over them.

The Pharoah was given 10 distinct opportunities to turn to YHVH and believe him.

After the death of the firstborn, he could have stopped, but he chased the Israeli people into the wilderness and then down into the red sea. Thus, he brought his destruction on himself by his own choosing.

Each man was given the opportunity to engage YHVH on his terms. They refused.
In the end, the prophecies regarding them were simply God saying what would happen, in advance, due to foreknowledge.

So you actually believe "he/she" hasn't read them?
 
When a Will is drawn away, it is not free-Free...

I can agree that there levels of "freedom". Some have more freedom than others. Some freedom comes from knowledge. That is why Jesus said "You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free".

The offering of choices implies some sense of freedom. Would you agree?
 
I can agree that there levels of "freedom". Some have more freedom than others. Some freedom comes from knowledge. That is why Jesus said "You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free".

The offering of choices implies some sense of freedom. Would you agree?
I agree there are Percentages of Freedom of the Will; but not agree in a %100 Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will, or a %100 Bound Will...
 
From the Reformed perspective? Nothing that was memorable.
Well, may I suggest that you educate yourself and read up on this? For the record I held to the non-Calvinist view in the past, and was brought up on the authors that supported that camp.
Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I wish God took away my ability to sin when I became a Christian, but apparently He left my free will intact. And since you're still capable of sinning, it looks like He left your free will intact too.
But I wouldn't call that freedom, and I am not sure why anyone else does. I think you see what I mean. Apparently what some consider freedom is in reality enslavement to our human nature, and rebellion to God. It is "God, you have no right to bug me or intrude on my life. I have free will, you know? Don't You dare intrude on my free will, and I know you won't because that isn't fair!"

We are not free until in Christ; John 8:31-38; Romans 6 in its entirety. I also look at Romans 6:20-23 particularly. Until we are regenerate we cannot choose nor come to Christ.
 
Always. At the very least, we must challenge ourselves.... :)
In our Body/Mind, we are not %100 Bound or Free. But because we are spiritually Dead, we are %100 unable to discern the things of God; thus unable to Will what needs to be Discerned by a Live Human Spirit...

Allegory ~ by Reverend RV

Galatians 4:24 King James 2000
; Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from mount Sinai, which brings forth to bondage, which is Hagar.

An Allegory is a story with symbolic Meaning that’s intended to help teach a lesson; IE “The Moral of the Story”. “Pilgrim’s Progress” is a famous Allegory intended to help us picture what the Bible teaches, it’s the second most published book after the Bible. I explained to someone what it meant to be spiritually dead, and I used an Allegory; we consist of Body and Soul but a dead spirit. ~ Mr Body and Mr Soul were sitting around a fire and they started reminiscing about their old friend Mr Spirit who had passed away. Mr Soul asked Mr Body if he believed in God? Mr Body said I don’t believe in anything I can’t see. Hoping to convince Mr Body that God is real, Mr Soul thought that maybe he could convince Mr Body in a god ‘like’ the real God, so he gave that a try. All of the sudden out of the flames, Mr Spirit returned from the dead and told Mr Soul and Mr Body he has Discerned that God is real; then they all believed in God…

Saint Paul said, “Once I was alive apart from the Law; but when the Commandment came, Sin sprang to life and I died. ~ What do you call someone who always tells Lies? A Liar, right? Do you tell Lies? As a matter of fact, don’t you always tell Lies? The Ninth Commandment has come to you, has Sin sprung to life in you? Start keeping track of your Lies and let me know. What do you call someone famous for Stealing? A Thief, right? Have you Stolen before? As a matter of fact, don’t you always Steal? The Eighth Commandment has come to you, has a part of you now died? If not, start keeping track of the things you Steal. ~ These are just two of the Ten Commandments, do we need to continue? Jesus is the Judge of the world and said that Lust is Adultery and Hatred is Murder. If he judged you by this standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Let me help you learn how to be Saved…

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ lived his life without Sinning and earned a good record of Righteousness; this qualified him to be the Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world. He did this by bleeding to death on a Roman Cross, and by rising from the dead on the first Easter Sunday. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Living Savior Jesus Christ, without Working to Merit our Justification. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and go to a Bible loving Church…

1st Thessalonians 5:23 KJV; And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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