Romans 9, Esau, and reprobation

In our Body/Mind, we are not %100 Bound or Free. But because we are spiritually Dead, we are %100 unable to discern the things of God; thus unable to Will what needs to be Discerned by a Live Human Spirit...

Allegory ~ by Reverend RV

Galatians 4:24 King James 2000
; Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from mount Sinai, which brings forth to bondage, which is Hagar.

An Allegory is a story with symbolic Meaning that’s intended to help teach a lesson; IE “The Moral of the Story”. “Pilgrim’s Progress” is a famous Allegory intended to help us picture what the Bible teaches, it’s the second most published book after the Bible. I explained to someone what it meant to be spiritually dead, and I used an Allegory; we consist of Body and Soul but a dead spirit. ~ Mr Body and Mr Soul were sitting around a fire and they started reminiscing about their old friend Mr Spirit who had passed away. Mr Soul asked Mr Body if he believed in God? Mr Body said I don’t believe in anything I can’t see. Hoping to convince Mr Body that God is real, Mr Soul thought that maybe he could convince Mr Body in a god ‘like’ the real God, so he gave that a try. All of the sudden out of the flames, Mr Spirit returned from the dead and told Mr Soul and Mr Body he has Discerned that God is real; then they all believed in God…

Saint Paul said, “Once I was alive apart from the Law; but when the Commandment came, Sin sprang to life and I died. ~ What do you call someone who always tells Lies? A Liar, right? Do you tell Lies? As a matter of fact, don’t you always tell Lies? The Ninth Commandment has come to you, has Sin sprung to life in you? Start keeping track of your Lies and let me know. What do you call someone famous for Stealing? A Thief, right? Have you Stolen before? As a matter of fact, don’t you always Steal? The Eighth Commandment has come to you, has a part of you now died? If not, start keeping track of the things you Steal. ~ These are just two of the Ten Commandments, do we need to continue? Jesus is the Judge of the world and said that Lust is Adultery and Hatred is Murder. If he judged you by this standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Let me help you learn how to be Saved…

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ lived his life without Sinning and earned a good record of Righteousness; this qualified him to be the Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world. He did this by bleeding to death on a Roman Cross, and by rising from the dead on the first Easter Sunday. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Living Savior Jesus Christ, without Working to Merit our Justification. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and go to a Bible loving Church…

1st Thessalonians 5:23 KJV; And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul said he was alive once. What do you take that to mean?

When Jesus told Pharisees "unless you believe that I am Him, you will die in your sins".... what spiritual discernment do you need to understand those words. Challenging...

While all unregenerate men are absent the understanding of the Spirit of God, the mind and body is animated by the gift of God given Adam in a living soul. The seed of life passed from generation to generation through the union of the seed of male and the seed of female. Awareness that can not be ignored. A mind to discern between hot and cold. Between danger and safety. Intrinsic value of consciousness. This is a compilcated construct. I often consider the possibly that it isn't as simple as we try to make it.
 
Both of those terms have to be defined. The word "sovereign" in particular is so preloaded with Reformed ideas about "providence" that I hesitate to even use the phrase "God is sovereign" anymore.
I thought it was because you hate the concept of God being sovereign, that is God ruling over His creation, when it really should be ours, right?
 
I thought it was because you hate the concept of God being sovereign, that is God ruling over His creation, when it really should be ours, right?
I have no problem with God ruling over His creation. If that's all you mean by sovereignty, then I'm all in.
 
Paul said he was alive once. What do you take that to mean?

When Jesus told Pharisees "unless you believe that I am Him, you will die in your sins".... what spiritual discernment do you need to understand those words. Challenging...

While all unregenerate men are absent the understanding of the Spirit of God, the mind and body is animated by the gift of God given Adam in a living soul. The seed of life passed from generation to generation through the union of the seed of male and the seed of female. Awareness that can not be ignored. A mind to discern between hot and cold. Between danger and safety. Intrinsic value of consciousness. This is a compilcated construct. I often consider the possibly that it isn't as simple as we try to make it.
I checked Commentaries, and a few of them said Saul was alive in his Conceit. Ellicott said that Sin didn't come to life, but came to life again. It reminds me of the sleeping giant; content to leave you alone if you don't bother it. This would be Saul's portion of Original Sin. Jesus said we aren't guilty of Sin while Blind. Adam's eyes were opened after he transgressed the Law, and Saul's eyes were opened after he Coveted. The difference between Saul of Tarsus and Adam of Eden, is that Adam was Neutral when he Sinned; but Saul wasn't...

All in Adam have Sinned Adam's Original Sin...
 
But I wouldn't call that freedom, and I am not sure why anyone else does. I think you see what I mean. Apparently what some consider freedom is in reality enslavement to our human nature, and rebellion to God. It is "God, you have no right to bug me or intrude on my life. I have free will, you know? Don't You dare intrude on my free will, and I know you won't because that isn't fair!"
Well, it both is and isn't freedom. In a qualitative sense is certainly isn't freedom to be constantly sinning when I want to be perfect instead. I cannot, by an act of my own will, cause my flesh to cease from even wanting to sin...which is what actually has to happen in order to become sinless.

But in another sense, being capable of sinning is itself the greatest evidence that free will does in fact exist. And the fact that we Christians continue to sin even after we beg God to take sin from us is even greater evidence that we have free will, and that God created us with it, and that He has no intentions of revoking it.

The way I think about this is that our hearts are like the garden that Adam was placed in. God put him there to subdue the ground; our responsibility now is to subdue our own hearts. He won't do it for us without our own initiative; it's our job, not His. The entire process of sanctification is the art of God assisting us (while not actually doing the job for us) in subduing the thorns and thistles that keep springing up in our hearts to try and lead us away from God. In short, God wants each person to fully resolve themselves as for or against Him, and the end goal of our sanctification is to reach a point where, even though we still have free will, we will never again choose to rebel against Him. I don't believe we can reach this point in this lifetime, but I believe we can reach it in the eschaton.
 
I cannot, by an act of my own will, cause my flesh to cease from even wanting to sin...

So your flesh has its own will distinct from your mind's will?
Where is THAT taught in Scripture?!

But in another sense, being capable of sinning is itself the greatest evidence that free will does in fact exist.

So "slave to sin" actually means, "free will to sin"?

And the fact that we Christians continue to sin even after we beg God to take sin from us is even greater evidence that we have free will,

Wow!
You really have an ACTIVE imagination!
Apparently according to you, EVERYTHING is evidence of "free will".
As the Church Lady used to say, "Isn't that conVEEEEEEEEEENient?!"

The way I think about this is that our hearts are like the garden that Adam was placed in. God put him there to subdue the ground; our responsibility now is to subdue our own hearts. He won't do it for us without our own initiative; it's our job, not His.

Where is THAT taught in Scripture?!

The entire process of sanctification is the art of God assisting us (while not actually doing the job for us)

So we get the goal, God only gets the "assist".
How incredibly sovereign of us!
 
Well, it both is and isn't freedom. In a qualitative sense is certainly isn't freedom to be constantly sinning when I want to be perfect instead. I cannot, by an act of my own will, cause my flesh to cease from even wanting to sin...which is what actually has to happen in order to become sinless.
We should rather stick to Biblical truths, should we not? We are dealing in objective truths, not subjectivity.

If an act of your will cannot cease you from sinning, why do you think, contrary to Scripture, that an act of your will decided you into eternal life? If your will could do the latter, the former would be a piece of cake.

You do realize that you idolatrize your will, and speak more highly of your will than of God, correct?
But in another sense, being capable of sinning is itself the greatest evidence that free will does in fact exist. And the fact that we Christians continue to sin even after we beg God to take sin from us is even greater evidence that we have free will, and that God created us with it, and that He has no intentions of revoking it.
That is not free will. That's an enslaved will. What you are doing is stacking the deck to turn salvation into a choice man makes. Nothingn in Scripture teaches this unless you take passages out of context, eisegete, and misapply them.

We are not saved via our wills, we do not decide for Jesus via our wills, our wills have zero to do with God saving us. Note John 1:13; James 1:18; John 6:63.
The way I think about this is
I want to use this to point out what I said initially, you are being subjective, not objective. You know as well as I truth comes objectively, from God, not us, not in the way we think &c.
that our hearts are like the garden that Adam was placed in. God put him there to subdue the ground; our responsibility now is to subdue our own hearts. He won't do it for us without our own initiative; it's our job, not His.
Wow, you've shown us the heart of the matter. No man is able to do what you say "isn't God's job."

I am amazed that you've relegated God to a lower level here than man. God changes hearts, not man, not you.

God is Savior, it's His job, NOT YOURS. God takes the initiative, not you. That's part of being LORD and Savior.
The entire process of sanctification is the art of God assisting us (while not actually doing the job for us) in subduing the thorns and thistles that keep springing up in our hearts to try and lead us away from God.
Can you show me Scripture that says this is the art of God?

God doesn't merely assist us, that is your humanism penetrating truth in both soteriology and sanctification and defiling them. This is what leads you astray doctrinally.

Again, God doesn't merely assist us, He causes us. Note Ezekiel 33:26ff; Philippians 2:12-13; Psalm 23:2 &c.
In short, God wants each person to fully resolve themselves as for or against Him,
So while dead in sins, you did the above, and for this God rewarded you with eternal life?
and the end goal of our sanctification is to reach a point where, even though we still have free will
We've never had the type of will you believe we've had.
, we will never again choose to rebel against Him.
But you're giving yourself the glory here, it is what you accomplished according to following the context of what you're saying.
I don't believe we can reach this point in this lifetime,
YOU won't. Ever.
but I believe we can reach it in the eschaton.
So, you will achieve Glorification via your efforts, the Glorification spoken of in Romans 8?

You have to see, my friend, you have a mixture of Pelagianism, humanism, and a distorted gospel as your doctrine. In your message it can never be Soli Deo Gloria.
 
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So your flesh has its own will distinct from your mind's will?
Where is THAT taught in Scripture?!
I'm actually surprised that you don't believe that; I thought most all Christians, especially Calvinists, believe that our flesh is cursed with a mind of its own. Paul frequently makes a distinction between spirit/mind and will/flesh/members, and he pits them at odds with one another. Read Romans 7. Pay attention to vv. 17-18: "But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find." See also v. 23: " But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

See also Rom. 8:13: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." To live according to the flesh is to live in subjection to the mind that your flesh has. For Paul, the fact that "he" agreed with the law of God over against the will of his flesh was an indication that his flesh itself is the source of the temptations that flood his mind. I put the word "he" in quotes for emphasis; he's making an unnatural distinction to serve his point. Even though man is a tripartite being (or bipartite if you prefer), for purposes of his argument here in Romans he is drawing a sharp distinction between the true "us" vs. the false us, and the false "us" is this cursed meat suit that we currently inhabit. Our bodies "died" when we sinned and what remains of our bodies is a substitute flesh that has a mind of its own. The idea behind glorification is that we will once again have a body that is of one mind with our soul/spirit, and is genuinely "us".
 
Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I wish God took away my ability to sin when I became a Christian, but apparently He left my free will intact. And since you're still capable of sinning, it looks like He left your free will intact too.
Do you have biblical proof for any of the above?
 
If an act of your will cannot cease you from sinning, why do you think, contrary to Scripture, that an act of your will decided you into eternal life? If your will could do the latter, the former would be a piece of cake.
To be clear, I do not believe that I can "decide my way into eternal life." That's not quite how salvation works. I believe that I can choose for or against Christ, and that God's promise to me is that I will inherit eternal life in response to choosing for Him. But that remains a hope for me; I can't force God's hand in this matter, but I trust that He's faithful to give me what He has promised. The belief itself isn't eternal life, Jesus is eternal life.
That is not free will. That's an enslaved will.
As I said earlier, I agree with you in a qualitative sense. But see my response above to Theo1689 about the distinction between our minds and our flesh. Our minds have the ability to choose contrary to our flesh (freedom), even though we don't do it perfectly (enslavement). But since an act of faith in Christ is all that it takes to secure God's promise of eternal life, that measure of freedom that we do retain over against our flesh is sufficient for us to lay hold of salvation.
I want to use this to point out what I said initially, you are being subjective, not objective. You know as well as I truth comes objectively, from God, not us, not in the way we think &c.
I would say truth comes both objectively (from God) and subjectively (from our experience). Our problem is that we often fail to interpret our subjective experiences truthfully (since we're prone to becoming deceived), but this doesn't speak to any deficiency in subjective truth.
 
"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." (James 1:13-14)
I'm sorry, what are you attempting to prove by that?
 
I'm actually surprised that you don't believe that; I thought most all Christians, especially Calvinists, believe that our flesh is cursed with a mind of its own.

You actually think that's referring to biological tissue?!
Seriously?!

Paul frequently makes a distinction between spirit/mind and will/flesh/members, and he pits them at odds with one another. Read Romans 7.

I've read it many times.

Pay attention to vv. 17-18:

There's no need to be insulting.
I "pay attention" whenever I read Scripture.
Far more than most, I dare say...

"But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find." See also v. 23: " But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

I'm familiar.

See also Rom. 8:13: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Yes, I know.
Romans is one of my favourite books of the Bible. I've got most of it memorized, and it seems I have to quote it for people every day.
 
There's no need to be insulting.
I "pay attention" whenever I read Scripture.
Far more than most, I dare say...
Now that I think about it, I can do this all day. More verses are coming to mind.

Let's look at Gal. 5:17. "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." Who do you think is the "you" in the last clause?
 
Now that I think about it, I can do this all day. More verses are coming to mind.

Let's look at Gal. 5:17. "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit,

But if you don't understand what is meant by "flesh", then it doesn't really matter how many verses you can find, does it?

Who do you think is the "you" in the last clause?

You confuse me with someone who is interested in having a discussion with you.
 
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