The Futility of Arminianism

[Reformedguy]

You depend way to much on what others say. You really believe the Holy Spirit is limited to where He can travel and who He can draw to Jesus ?

No actually we don't. Christ said the Spirit goes where it wishes to go. We believe it goes where it goes and always accomplishes its purpose. You cannot say that of course.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do believe the first sentence but not the second. All those who are in Christ will be taught of God before they die...I believe this is their way of lessening the offense of the cross, which compromises the Gospel?.

Well, the gospel does not save the saved, but the lost.

 

[eternomade]

Well, the gospel does not save the saved, but the lost.

Agreed. Christ saved His people when He died. Faith reveals this. It's a good report.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Agreed. Christ saved His people when He died. Faith reveals this. It's a good report.

Ppl are not saved without faith and before they heard the word they were devoid of faith and lost.

 

[fltom]

Agreed. Christ saved His people when He died. Faith reveals this. It's a good report.

This appears to ignore the instrumentality of faith in salvation

 

[Theo1689]

This touches on the issue of inclusivism which would stray beyond the Calvinism/Arminianism forum; but you might give some thought to Peter's words in Acts 10:34-35. "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: 'In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.' "

Why do you insultingly think we HAVEN't "give[n] some thought to Peter's words"?
We HAVE given them much thought. And they don't help you.

You might give some thought to who Peter was speaking of, and about the fact that this man was earlier described as devout and God-fearing before he had even heard the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the further accusations of ignorance.
We HAVE given them much thought. And they don't help you.

For that matter, since you quoted Acts 17:26 I could direct your attention to the very next verse which says "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us..."

Yes, we're VERY familiar with that verse.
And?

 

[eternomade]

This appears to ignore the instrumentality of faith in salvation

I don't believe man's faith is instrumental in salvation but revealing salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't believe man's faith is instrumental in salvation but revealing salvation.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[Howie]

Spoiler: nothing I said should be taken to mean that one can be saved, go to heaven, or otherwise have access to eternal life apart from Jesus Christ.

You're saying the Gospel is "exclusive."

 

[Howie]

You depend way to much on what others say. You really believe the Holy Spirit is limited to where He can travel and who He can draw to Jesus ?

Rubbish, you are saying what I believe.

 

[fltom]

I don't believe man's faith is instrumental in salvation but revealing salvation.

Well that is an error as even Calvinist theologians confess

Faith as an Instrumental cause


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).


That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed

see also

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

 

[Howie]

Well that is an error as even Calvinist theologians confess

Faith as an Instrumental cause


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).


That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed

see also

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

Always relying on Calvinists to make his point ... ^^^

 

[Theo1689]

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).
L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.
[William Greenough Thayer Shedd,

First you tell us to follow the Bible instead of the teachings of men.
Now you want us to follow the teachings of men (Calvin, Berkhof, Shedd) instead of the Bible.
Get back to us when you're no longer confused.

 

[TibiasDad]

There is no hope for most of the world!

And there is the truth of the Calvinistic gospel! I commend you, Janice, for admitting what few will acknowledge!

 

[Theo1689]

And there is the truth of the Calvinistic gospel! I commend you, Janice, for admitting what few will acknowledge!

So Arminians DENY and REJECT:

"Many are called, but FEW are chosen";
'NARROW is the path, and FEW there be who find it."

Got it.

 

[fltom]

First you tell us to follow the Bible instead of the teachings of men.
Now you want us to follow the teachings of men (Calvin, Berkhof, Shedd) instead of the Bible.
Get back to us when you're no longer confused.

The problem is the teachings referenced agree with scripture

the fact a Calvinist is out of step with scripture and even Calvinist theologians does not point to confusion on my part.

if that is what you think then it is you who is confused.

 

[Theo1689]

The problem is the teachings referenced agree with scripture

I disagree.
But you're trying to tell me that I can't trust what I think, and I have to instead blindly trust what YOU think, namely leave Jesus and follow YOU.

NOT.
GONNA.
HAPPEN.

the fact a Calvinist is out of step with scripture

I don't believe that I am.

and even Calvinist theologians does not point to confusion on my part.

I don't believe that I am.

Not only am I not going to argue wiht you about the interpretation of Scripture, I'm also notn going to arguing with you about the interpretations of the texts of Reformed theologians, especially when they. aren't infallible.

if that is what you think then it is you who is confused.

You can think whatever you want.
I really don't care.

 

[fltom]

I disagree.
But you're trying to tell me that I can't trust what I think, and I have to instead blindly trust what YOU think, namely leave Jesus and follow YOU.

NOT.
GONNA.
HAPPEN.



I don't believe that I am.

Er you were not the one being addressed

I don't believe that I am.

Not only am I not going to argue wiht you about the interpretation of Scripture, I'm also notn going to arguing with you about the interpretations of the texts of Reformed theologians, especially when they. aren't infallible.

so in other words you will offer nothing at all to prove your view

got it

You can think whatever you want.
I really don't care.

and the readers?

 

[Theo1689]

Er you were not the one being addressed

Er this is a PUBLIC discussion forum.
It seems you're wrong and confused about everything.

so in other words you will offer nothing at all to prove your view

Not to you, no. My Lord Jesus commands me not to (Matt. 7:6).
And you KNOW that.

and the readers?

I am more than willing to answer to any readers who have bona fide questions.
That clearly does not include you. IMO.

 

[Howie]

First you tell us to follow the Bible instead of the teachings of men.
Now you want us to follow the teachings of men (Calvin, Berkhof, Shedd) instead of the Bible.
Get back to us when you're no longer confused.

Indeed.