The logical truth and reality of God's believing mind.

[Algor]

So Tercon, what exactly is a belief, and how does a belief happen? The first question is the one I'm most interested in.

 

[Temujin]

Yes. People do willfully embrace delusions in order to protect their worldview, because the truth exposes them to change that they are not willing to make.

If you actually believed that belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then how is it possible for you to also disbelieve that belief is sufficient to make the truth known to you?
If it is in fact true that belief is necessary and must occur before the truth and reality known to you, then belief must have something to do with the truth and reality being made to you. If belief has to occur before knowledge can occur, then belief must create knowledge of the truth and reality.

Also, if belief doesn't occur, aka lack of belief and unbelief does, then the truth and reality becomes unknowable.

So, if ignorance of the truth and reality belongs in the realm of unbelief and "false belief", then "false beliefs" must be just unbelief of the truth and reality, because it is only unbelief aka "lack of belief" in reality that keeps a mind ignorant of the truth and reality.


Can you know anything about existence without a believing mind and knowledge? No.

And if "existing" or existence isn't a form of knowledge and thus believable and knowable in reality some way, then how do you know what it is if it isn't believable or knowable? Explain how you know what "existing" is without believing and knowing what it is? I am calling BS on the above and willful suppression of the truth.


Conflation of belief and unbelief. "Things that are real may be known about" and knowable because they are believable in reality. And things that that are not knowable or aka "not be known" and are unknowable because they are not believable in reality. Like your conjuring about "existing" and existence not being a form of knowledge or belief; this is nothing more than a figment of your unbelieving mind in order to hide the truth from yourself.

Are you "honestly mistaken" when you say that "existing" or existence isn't a form or knowledge or belief? When you know that everything that is true and exists in reality is in fact belief and knowledge based.

But people can't have unbelief of the truth and still know reality. And if belief is still necessary before the truth is known to you in reality, then it is only believers or people with believing minds that can know the truth in reality.

Things can be true about other things in describing them and those truths may not listed in dictionaries. But those things can still be true in describing those things list in dictionaries.

Actually this is more to do with your unbelief (atheism) and unbelieving mind and how it makes you so profoundly ignorant of the truth and reality. Everyone who disbelieves that belief makes the truth and reality known to them possesses a unbelieving mind, as they have literally embrace a unbelief which is universal in nature in regards how the truth and reality is known to them. Such unbelieving minds who possess this unbelief have literally embraced ignorance as a way of knowledge rather than the means by which the truth and reality are known to people. And referring to and degrading the reality of belief and its necessity before any knowledge of the truth and reality is gained is profoundly ignorant, idiodic or dishonest; pick your choice, because it has to be one or all of these to do so.

Strawman. When grasping something with our mind or aka belief is the means by which we make the truth and reality known is far more important in making it known in reality to ourselves than "the thing itself".

You are making up something that isn't based on the truth, so how does this have anything to do with reality?

As if you were really concerned about the truth truth and reality you would be using something like the following in how and why the truth and reality is known to us:

Similar to this: 'Belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known'. Now, if this statement is true and representative of reality, then this is the means by which our minds grasp the truth and reality. This is reality and how and why it is known.

However, a hypothetical and which you use above "If an asteroid hots earth and destroys all human life, and not being based on the truth and thus not represented in reality, is this the way and means the truth and reality is made known to us? NO!

The "moon, the stars" and "the cosmos" inanimate objects that are unable possess or give any meaning to the truth and reality. And it is ONLY a believing mind that is capable of knowing of its own existence and making one conscious of the truth and reality. It is only a believing mind that has the capacity to possess life and give it meaning.

You seem to be under the false impression beliefs "are false", but the truth is that many if not most belief are justified true beliefs and beliefs in reality. So, to suggest that just because some people have "false beliefs" that this somehow makes belief not capable of making the truth and reality known to you. This is patently false and nothing more than a form of universal unbelief making belief in the truth and reality much harder for you than people who believe belief is not only necessary, but capable of making the truth and reality known.

You are conflating belief and unbelief, because if you disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to you, then this makes you a universal unbeliever, because you have rejected the only means by which the truth and reality is made known to you.

Believers know what I believe is true because belief is necessary for knowledge to occur.

However, unbelievers don't and can't know the truth and reality's knowledge because they are not doing what is necessary in order the make the truth and reality known to them. Rather they have embraced unbelief (atheism) instead, and unbelief is incapable of making the truth and reality known to anyone.

Thank you for taking so much time to reply to my post. It's a shame that you were not prepared to take a bit extra time to make your reply readable, comprehensible, logical and sensible. Sadly, it is nine of these, things. I am not prepared to waste my time further disentangling the dross from your post only to find that it is just a regurgitation of the same crap, that fails to address what I've already written. Chalk this up to yet one more time that your ideas were shown to be faulty and you failed to understand why.

 

[Tercon]

So Tercon, what exactly is a belief, and how does a belief happen? The first question is the one I'm most interested in.

When I speak of belief or beliefs; I am referring strictly to beliefs in reality or justified true beliefs and not "false beliefs".

A belief in reality = justified true belief is: 'Trump is president of the USA in 2019'.
So, belief can only occur in reality when that belief has a connection with reality in being true in representing reality.

 

[Tercon]

Thank you for taking so much time to reply to my post. It's a shame that you were not prepared to take a bit extra time to make your reply readable, comprehensible, logical and sensible.
Sadly, it is nine of these, things. I am not prepared to waste my time further disentangling the dross from your post only to find that it is just a regurgitation of the same crap, that fails to address what I've already written. Chalk this up to yet one more time that your ideas were shown to be faulty and you failed to understand why.

Which parts are you suggesting that are not "readable, comprehensible, logical and sensible"?

 

[Algor]

When I speak of belief or beliefs; I am referring strictly to beliefs in reality or justified true beliefs and not "false beliefs".

OK, so in what way is the idea of "belief" (the way you use the word belief) different from the idea of "reality" (the way you use it the word "reality")?

 

[Tercon]

OK, so in what way is the idea of "belief" (the way you use the word belief) different from the idea of "reality" (the way you use it the word "reality")?

Belief is a action of the mind and reality is the place in which it must occur, before the truth is made known to you. Or in other words; belief is necessary and must occur in reality before the truth is made known to you.

 

[Temujin]

Which parts are you suggesting that are not "readable, comprehensible, logical and sensible"?

Your post, taken as a whole or in parts. You broke up my post into chunks to reply, which is absolutely fair. However what you wrote after each and every section didn't answer what I said, didn't make sens or most frequently, both. I've got more to life than studying your opaque language trying to find a kernel of sense.

 

[Tercon]

1. Yes. People do willfully embrace delusions in order to protect their worldview, because the truth exposes them to change that they are not willing to make. If you actually believed that belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then how is it possible for you to also disbelieve that belief is sufficient to make the truth known to you?
If it is in fact true that belief is necessary and must occur before the truth and reality known to you, then belief must have something to do with the truth and reality being made to you. If belief has to occur before knowledge can occur, then belief must create knowledge of the truth and reality.

Okay. Let's take this first part. Which part is false and why is it false?

Also, if belief doesn't occur, aka lack of belief and unbelief does, then the truth and reality becomes unknowable.

So, if ignorance of the truth and reality belongs in the realm of unbelief and "false belief", then "false beliefs" must be just unbelief of the truth and reality, because it is only unbelief aka "lack of belief" in reality that keeps a mind ignorant of the truth and reality.


Can you know anything about existence without a believing mind and knowledge? No.

And if "existing" or existence isn't a form of knowledge and thus believable and knowable in reality some way, then how do you know what it is if it isn't believable or knowable? Explain how you know what "existing" is without believing and knowing what it is? I am calling BS on the above and willful suppression of the truth.


Conflation of belief and unbelief. "Things that are real may be known about" and knowable because they are believable in reality. And things that that are not knowable or aka "not be known" and are unknowable because they are not believable in reality. Like your conjuring about "existing" and existence not being a form of knowledge or belief; this is nothing more than a figment of your unbelieving mind in order to hide the truth from yourself.

Are you "honestly mistaken" when you say that "existing" or existence isn't a form or knowledge or belief? When you know that everything that is true and exists in reality is in fact belief and knowledge based.

But people can't have unbelief of the truth and still know reality. And if belief is still necessary before the truth is known to you in reality, then it is only believers or people with believing minds that can know the truth in reality.

Things can be true about other things in describing them and those truths may not listed in dictionaries. But those things can still be true in describing those things list in dictionaries.

Actually this is more to do with your unbelief (atheism) and unbelieving mind and how it makes you so profoundly ignorant of the truth and reality. Everyone who disbelieves that belief makes the truth and reality known to them possesses a unbelieving mind, as they have literally embrace a unbelief which is universal in nature in regards how the truth and reality is known to them. Such unbelieving minds who possess this unbelief have literally embraced ignorance as a way of knowledge rather than the means by which the truth and reality are known to people. And referring to and degrading the reality of belief and its necessity before any knowledge of the truth and reality is gained is profoundly ignorant, idiodic or dishonest; pick your choice, because it has to be one or all of these to do so.

Strawman. When grasping something with our mind or aka belief is the means by which we make the truth and reality known is far more important in making it known in reality to ourselves than "the thing itself".

You are making up something that isn't based on the truth, so how does this have anything to do with reality?

As if you were really concerned about the truth truth and reality you would be using something like the following in how and why the truth and reality is known to us:

Similar to this: 'Belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known'. Now, if this statement is true and representative of reality, then this is the means by which our minds grasp the truth and reality. This is reality and how and why it is known.

However, a hypothetical and which you use above "If an asteroid hots earth and destroys all human life, and not being based on the truth and thus not represented in reality, is this the way and means the truth and reality is made known to us? NO!

The "moon, the stars" and "the cosmos" inanimate objects that are unable possess or give any meaning to the truth and reality. And it is ONLY a believing mind that is capable of knowing of its own existence and making one conscious of the truth and reality. It is only a believing mind that has the capacity to possess life and give it meaning.

You seem to be under the false impression beliefs "are false", but the truth is that many if not most belief are justified true beliefs and beliefs in reality. So, to suggest that just because some people have "false beliefs" that this somehow makes belief not capable of making the truth and reality known to you. This is patently false and nothing more than a form of universal unbelief making belief in the truth and reality much harder for you than people who believe belief is not only necessary, but capable of making the truth and reality known.

You are conflating belief and unbelief, because if you disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to you, then this makes you a universal unbeliever, because you have rejected the only means by which the truth and reality is made known to you.

Believers know what I believe is true because belief is necessary for knowledge to occur.

However, unbelievers don't and can't know the truth and reality's knowledge because they are not doing what is necessary in order the make the truth and reality known to them. Rather they have embraced unbelief (atheism) instead, and unbelief is incapable of making the truth and reality known to anyone.

 

[Caroljeen]

Belief is a action of the mind and reality is the place in which it must occur, before the truth is made known to you. Or in other words; belief is necessary and must occur in reality before the truth is made known to you.

Can a non-believer in God have a belief in reality that is true?

I'm looking for a yes or no answer, please.

 

[Tercon]

Can a non-believer in God have a belief in reality that is true?

I'm looking for a yes or no answer, please.

It does not matter what you are "looking for", because the truth you do not seek, as you just get to ask the question, you don't get to determine MY answer.

My answer: If reality is the result of God's Believing Mind and unbelievers reject the means by which God makes His reality known to us; in unbelievers disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them, then their universal unbelief must make reality unknowable to them.

 

[Temujin]

It does not matter what you are "looking for", because the truth you do not seek, as you just get to ask the question, you don't get to determine MY answer.

My answer: If reality is the result of God's Believing Mind and unbelievers reject the means by which God makes His reality known to us; in unbelievers disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them, then their universal unbelief must make reality unknowable to them.

That would be a "no" then.

Brevity is an underrated virtue.

 

[Tercon]

That would be a "no" then.

Brevity is an underrated virtue.

"The truth is only underrated by fools".

 

[Caroljeen]

It does not matter what you are "looking for", because the truth you do not seek, as you just get to ask the question, you don't get to determine MY answer.

My answer: If reality is the result of God's Believing Mind and unbelievers reject the means by which God makes His reality known to us; in unbelievers disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them, then their universal unbelief must make reality unknowable to them.

This would have been more helpful:

No, If reality is the result of God's Believing Mind and unbelievers reject the means by which God makes His reality known to us; in unbelievers disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them, then their universal unbelief must make reality unknowable to them.

If the bottom line in this doctrine that I have only ever heard from you is the bolded red statement, I don't see how anyone could believe it. Certainly natural reality is universally known to everyone with the capacity to know. Everyone knows that trump was president in 2019. So what reality are you talking about?

 

[Tercon]

This would have been more helpful:

No, If reality is the result of God's Believing Mind and unbelievers reject the means by which God makes His reality known to us; in unbelievers disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them, then their universal unbelief must make reality unknowable to them.

If the bottom line in this doctrine that I have only ever heard from you is the bolded red statement, I don't see how anyone could believe it. Certainly natural reality is universally known to everyone with the capacity to know.

Well of course you can't, because; if unbelievers disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them, then its truth and reality is unknowable to them because of their universal unbelief. Understand?

 

[Caroljeen]

Well of course you can't, because; if unbelievers disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them, then its truth and reality is unknowable to them because of their universal unbelief. Understand?

No, I don't understand. I fully believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.

What reality are you speaking? God's reality would only be Spiritual reality although natural reality reveals him. What reality do unbelievers in God believe?

1. All reality
2. only Spiritual reality
3. only natural reality

 

[Temujin]

"The truth is only underrated by fools".

While falsehoods are overstated by bombasts.

 

[Caroljeen]

That would be a "no" then.

Brevity is an underrated virtue.

Thank you for translating Tercon.

 

[Temujin]

Thank you for translating Tercon.

Lol. Years of practice.

 

[Tercon]

No, I don't understand. I fully believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I assume then that you ascribe to materialism.

Do you know how God is God?

What reality are you speaking?

God's reality = His Kingdom

God's reality would only be Spiritual reality although natural reality reveals him.

Actually there is only One reality and that's God's reality. There is no such thing as physical reality, because the truth and reality are only knowable in and with a Believing Mind. And if you believe there is more than One reality, then you need to revaluate what the Bible means. And no "natural reality" doesn't reveal him, but a believing mind reveals Him. The truth matters.

What reality do unbelievers in God believe?

"Unbelievers in God" don't know what reality is, because they think that reality is known through their physical senses (empiricism) and disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them.

1. All reality
2. only Spiritual reality
3. only natural reality

If you disbelieve their is only One reality, then you are a unbeliever.

 

[Temujin]

I assume then that you ascribe to materialism.

Do you know how God is God?



God's reality = His Kingdom



Actually there is only One reality and that's God's reality. There is no such thing as physical reality, because the truth and reality are only knowable in and with a Believing Mind. And if you believe there is more than One reality, then you need to revaluate what the Bible means. And no "natural reality" doesn't reveal him, but a believing mind reveals Him. The truth matters.



"Unbelievers in God" don't know what reality is, because they think that reality is known through their physical senses (empiricism) and disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them.



If you disbelieve their is only One reality, then you are a unbeliever.

I think in reference to another thread, we have uncovered a religion with only one adherent. "There's no such thing as physical reality" is a comical statement from someone who clearly eats and drinks, and all the biological consequences thereof, who types on a computer and uses the internet, who lives in a society dominated to the point of obsession by the physical reality of consumerism. May main argument against religion of all sorts is "What's the point?". I've never come across a religion quite as pointless as yours. You make Simeon Stylites look like a useful person.