Thinking through humility, and what it looks like.

squirrelyguy

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
One objection that I've often heard from Calvinists is this: What made you better than your unsaved neighbor who didn't believe the gospel?

The thrust of this question is that our belief makes us qualitatively better than our neighbor who hears the gospel but doesn't believe; and that if we are to avoid thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought, we must give God all the credit for the fact that we believe.

But if we apply this to the example of the Pharisee and the Publican in Luke 18, how would we arrive at the lesson which Jesus intends? The Pharisee prays to himself "God I thank YOU that I am not like other men..." (18:11) Since the Pharisee is giving God all the credit for the fact that he is not like other men, then why doesn't Jesus hold him forth as an example of humility?

The point is: If giving God credit for the fact that he is not like other men does not mitigate the fact that he is exalting himself by pointing this out to God, then why should we think that even if our belief makes us somehow better than our unbelieving neighbors that becoming a Calvinist would mitigate against any self-righteousness we incur as a result of that fact?

It seems to me that the mere act of believing the gospel is not meritorious in God's sight (contra Calvinism), and therefore it does not follow that attributing our belief to God gets us out from under any accusation of self-righteousness.

What does result in becoming self-righteous, per this parable, is to allow myself to think that I am a type of teacher's pet; that is, that God has chosen me over against my neighbor, and that not only am I not like my neighbor but it is as a direct result of God's favor that I am not like my neighbor. That is self-exaltation according to Jesus.
 
squirrelyguy said:
One objection that I've often heard from Calvinists is this: What made you better than your unsaved neighbor who didn't believe the gospel?

The thrust of this question is that our belief makes us qualitatively better than our neighbor who hears the gospel but doesn't believe; and that if we are to avoid thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought, we must give God all the credit for the fact that we believe.

But if we apply this to the example of the Pharisee and the Publican in Luke 18, how would we arrive at the lesson which Jesus intends? The Pharisee prays to himself "God I thank YOU that I am not like other men..." (18:11) Since the Pharisee is giving God all the credit for the fact that he is not like other men, then why doesn't Jesus hold him forth as an example of humility?

The point is: If giving God credit for the fact that he is not like other men does not mitigate the fact that he is exalting himself by pointing this out to God, then why should we think that even if our belief makes us somehow better than our unbelieving neighbors that becoming a Calvinist would mitigate against any self-righteousness we incur as a result of that fact?

It seems to me that the mere act of believing the gospel is not meritorious in God's sight (contra Calvinism), and therefore it does not follow that attributing our belief to God gets us out from under any accusation of self-righteousness.

What does result in becoming self-righteous, per this parable, is to allow myself to think that I am a type of teacher's pet; that is, that God has chosen me over against my neighbor, and that not only am I not like my neighbor but it is as a direct result of God's favor that I am not like my neighbor. That is self-exaltation according to Jesus.
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Your OP neglects to tell the entire story.
 
squirrelyguy said:
One objection that I've often heard from Calvinists is this: What made you better than your unsaved neighbor who didn't believe the gospel?

The thrust of this question is that our belief makes us qualitatively better than our neighbor who hears the gospel but doesn't believe; and that if we are to avoid thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought, we must give God all the credit for the fact that we believe.

But if we apply this to the example of the Pharisee and the Publican in Luke 18, how would we arrive at the lesson which Jesus intends? The Pharisee prays to himself "God I thank YOU that I am not like other men..." (18:11) Since the Pharisee is giving God all the credit for the fact that he is not like other men, then why doesn't Jesus hold him forth as an example of humility?

The point is: If giving God credit for the fact that he is not like other men does not mitigate the fact that he is exalting himself by pointing this out to God, then why should we think that even if our belief makes us somehow better than our unbelieving neighbors that becoming a Calvinist would mitigate against any self-righteousness we incur as a result of that fact?

It seems to me that the mere act of believing the gospel is not meritorious in God's sight (contra Calvinism), and therefore it does not follow that attributing our belief to God gets us out from under any accusation of self-righteousness.

What does result in becoming self-righteous, per this parable, is to allow myself to think that I am a type of teacher's pet; that is, that God has chosen me over against my neighbor, and that not only am I not like my neighbor but it is as a direct result of God's favor that I am not like my neighbor. That is self-exaltation according to Jesus.
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Scripture settles the point

Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

faith is not seen as meritorious and is fully consistent with grace
 
squirrelyguy said:
It seems to me that the mere act of believing the gospel is not meritorious in God's sight (contra Calvinism), and therefore it does not follow that attributing our belief to God gets us out from under any accusation of self-righteousness.
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Certainly that is the testimony of scripture
 
squirrelyguy said:
One objection that I've often heard from Calvinists is this: What made you better than your unsaved neighbor who didn't believe the gospel?

The thrust of this question is that our belief makes us qualitatively better than our neighbor who hears the gospel but doesn't believe;
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Where do you jump from a question of "what made you better?", to "belief makes us qualitatively better"?

If you're going to project "belief makes us better" onto Calvinists, I'd like to see some linked quotes. Otherwise, you're simply being disingenuous.

squirrelyguy said:
It seems to me that the mere act of believing the gospel is not meritorious in God's sight (contra Calvinism),
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Sorry, but Calvinism in NO WAY teaches that believing "is meritorious in God's sight".

On the contrary, I will share with you one of my favourite quotes:

“The grace of God is love freely shown towards guilty sinners, contrary to their merit and indeed in defiance of their demerit. It is God showing goodness to persons who deserve only severity and who had no reason to expect anything but severity.”
-- J.I. Packer, Introduction to "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ"

We don't "merit" salvation in any way.
It is an unmerited gift of grace.
 
squirrelyguy said:
One objection that I've often heard from Calvinists is this: What made you better than your unsaved neighbor who didn't believe the gospel?
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Why do you you believe when your neighbor doesn't? We're both made from the same lump of clay, meaning we're in every equal (Rom 9:21).
 
Howie said:
Why do you you believe when your neighbor doesn't? We're both made from the same lump of clay, meaning we're in every equal (Rom 9:21).
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Except you believe you were unconditionally chosen before the foundation of the earth therefore more equal
 
Howie said:
Eph 1:4-13; Rom 8:28-30

Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger.
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Nothing there about being unconditionally chosen to be a believer

Eph 1:4 believers are chosen to be holy and blameless

Rom 8:28 concerns those who love God

seems your message got lost in the translation
 
fltom said:
Nothing there about being unconditionally chosen to be a believer

Eph 1:4 believers are chosen to be holy and blameless

Rom 8:28 concerns those who love God

seems your message got lost in the translation
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Scripture and history say otherwise.
 
Howie said:
Scripture and history say otherwise.
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sorry that is simply your theology

and it is contrary to scripture

Nothing there about being unconditionally chosen to be a believer

Eph 1:4 believers are chosen to be holy and blameless

Rom 8:28 concerns those who love God

neither teach your doctrine and it must be read into the scriptures
 
fltom said:
sorry that is simply your theology

and it is contrary to scripture

Nothing there about being unconditionally chosen to be a believer

Eph 1:4 believers are chosen to be holy and blameless

Rom 8:28 concerns those who love God

neither teach your doctrine and it must be read into the scriptures
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Scripture and history say otherwise.
 
Howie said:
Scripture and history say otherwise.
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No history does not say otherwise you theology does

and scripture does not support it

Eph 1:4 believers are chosen to be holy and blameless

Rom 8:28 concerns those who love God

neither teach your doctrine and it must be read into the scriptures
 
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