"Unpaid Ministry" - A series of thoughts

[Richard7]

Nonsense Ralf, and you know it. A Bishop, Patriarch, SP, MP, RSP, Primary director, or even athletic director...etc, take more than 5 hrs. a week.
edited by moderator

Chuckle.... well is that what she stated? Bonnie: on Sundays, that they wouldn't see each other for 12 hours on that day.

You wish to now correct your error and admit I'm right?
For Markk again, this was what I stated:
Richard7 said:
12 hr day? awe that is a really extreme exaggeration Bonnie... I have one of the busiest calling in the Church, Elders Quorum President and my Sundays are usually not longer then 5 hrs sometimes... why the exaggeration and dramatizations?

 

[Aaron32]

Lynn Wilder noted in her book that both she and her husband had so many callings to the LDS church on Sundays, that they wouldn't see each other for 12 hours on that day. Lynn had to hire a teem-aged girl to get her kids up for church on Sundays, get them out of bed, dressed, fed breakfast, and take them to church. So, the Wilders couldn't even worship together on Sundays.

That may been true while she was a member. Since then, the Church has been more direct about limiting meetings on Sundays:

Church Handbook: Section 29.1 Planning and Conducting Meetings:
"Leaders ensure that the number and length of meetings do not create burdens for members or their families. For example, meetings should not make it difficult for families to have time together on the Sabbath day."

Did Lynn bring this up to her Bishop or Stake President? It's still volunteer work, and it's ok to say "no" if you don't feel called to the position, of if you feel other things take priority. They lived in Utah County for goodness sake, I'm sure many could have filled their callings.

 

[Richard7]

No, it isn't, Richard. That is what Lynn wrote in her book. You didn't read it--I did, twice. I will see if I can find it in the book, but not sure where to look in it for this info, as it has been years since I read it the second time. I first had it on my tablet, where I highlighted a bunch of things, but then decided to buy a good used copy of it, so I could actually handle it and find things more easily in it.

Save yourself the work, It isn't about Lynn, its about you believing such fabrication...

 

[Richard7]

That may been true while she was a member. Since then, the Church has been more direct about limiting meetings on Sundays:

Church Handbook: Section 29.1 Planning and Conducting Meetings:
"Leaders ensure that the number and length of meetings do not create burdens for members or their families. For example, meetings should not make it difficult for families to have time together on the Sabbath day."

Did Lynn bring this up to her Bishop or Stake President? It's still volunteer work, and it's ok to say "no" if you don't feel called to the position, of if you feel other things take priority. They lived in Utah County for goodness sake, I'm sure many could have filled their callings.

Excellent evidence that they ignore and love to believe some ex mormon and their fabricated hype.... ? ?

 

[Bonnie]

That may been true while she was a member. Since then, the Church has been more direct about limiting meetings on Sundays:

Church Handbook: Section 29.1 Planning and Conducting Meetings:
"Leaders ensure that the number and length of meetings do not create burdens for members or their families. For example, meetings should not make it difficult for families to have time together on the Sabbath day."

Well, that is progress. Glad to here it. Thanks!

Did Lynn bring this up to her Bishop or Stake President? It's still volunteer work, and it's ok to say "no" if you don't feel called to the position, of if you feel other things take priority. They lived in Utah County for goodness sake, I'm sure many could have filled their callings.

I don't know if she did or not. I doubt it, since she kept it up for years.

Thank you for your reasoned response. I appreciate it.

 

[Bonnie]

Excellent evidence that they ignore and love to believe some ex mormon and their fabricated hype.... ? ?

Prove that Lynn fabricated what I put down here. I read her book--twice. Organgrinder has, also. I also met her and her husband at a church convention some years ago, where they gave a talk about Mormonism and what led them out of it. I also have emailed her a few times.

You don't want to believe what she wrote, so you impugn her character and claim what she wrote is "fabricated hype" without a shred of evidence.

 

[Bonnie]

Save yourself the work, It isn't about Lynn, its about you believing such fabrication...

Prove it is fabrication, Richard. PROVE IT.

 

[Theo1689]

Chuckle.... well is that what she stated? Bonnie: on Sundays, that they wouldn't see each other for 12 hours on that day.

You wish to now correct your error and admit I'm right?

Why would she?
You haven't demonstrated she actually made any alleged "error".

Even Aaron was honest enough to assume that he experience was true, and that the discrpancy may simply due to the change in LDS policy over time. And since you CLAIM to have been a Mormon for how many years, at last 65, surely you would know about this change in policy.

So IMO if anyone is in "error", it seems obvious that it would be YOU.

 

[Bonnie]

Okay, Aaron, Markk, and Richard, I found it, in Lynn's book, pp. 79-83. What I described happened in Indiana, not Utah. I had forgotten that. When I get time, I will put down some of what Lynn wrote about this. I think this was in the late 70's or early 80's.

Oh, and Aaron, she did go to her superior at the stake presidency about this, but he didn't release her. Some months later, 2 priesthood leaders questioned her. She told them her problem, and they kindly released her from her callings. That was nice of them.

 

[Bonnie]

Okay, here is an excerpt from Lynn's book Unveiling Grace, p. 80. She and her family were living in Indiana at the time.

A typical Sunday went like this: On Saturday, I prepared the children's Sunday clothes and communicated Sunday's plans with their Mormon teen-aged babysitter, who would watch them and take them to church. The babysitter would arrive by 6 AM Sunday, and Mike and I would leave the house by 6:15 AM, go different directions, and not return home for 12 hours.

One of the reasons they were gone for so long was because of the long distances they had to travel on Sunday. Indiana isn't the hotbed of Mormonism as Utah is, and the 12 wards Lynn was assigned to were miles apart.

In October of 1988 I took 6-week old Katie and drove the hour and a half to the first of that day's assigned wards. I attended all three hours of meetings, which began at 8 O'clock AM, spoke during the sacrament meeting as the stake Primary president, then attended the 2 hours of Primary--visiting classes, ,the nursery, observing the children's music, and so on. After church, y stake Primary board members, who had met me there and were also observing, met with the ward Primary leaders to give them feedback, direction, and training. Then we had to mee as a board and write a report for the stake president on this particular ward's Primary organization and their reaction to our feedback.

By 2 PM we arrived at the second ward and went through the same procedure again, starting with the 2-5 PM meeting block. WE met afterward with that ward's Primary leaders, and then met together as a board to solidify this ward Primary's report to the stake president.

These wards were fairly far apart and Lynn spent part of the time on the road, going between the various wards. Her husband Mike also had a lot of duties that took up a lot of time on Sundays, but I won't go into that on here.

This was a typical Sunday for Lynn and her family when they lived in Indiana. But she did finally go to her superior in the stake presidency, and laid out all that she was going through, trying to be a full-time mother of 4 kids, and hold all of her callings, take care of elderly parents, and why she should have to hire a babysitter to take care of her kids on Sunday, because of having to fulfill all of her callings. His reaction was the "standard LDS mantra", p. 82:

"Sister Wilder, you know you will be blessed if you obey and serve Your Father knows your needs, and He will bless you if you magnify the calling he has given you." Then he softened and did agree to think and pray about it.....Months later, I received a phone call from a member of the stake presidency who told me the stake president wanted his auxiliary leaders (that is what I was) to stay in their callings at least 3 years. Okay That seemed to be our answer.

But the next week, I was called in and questioned by 2 priesthood leaders. I asked them, "Can you promies me my little ones will be fine when I am out serving the Lord? I know the stake president says this is the case."

"No, sister Wilder, I can't promise you that....I release you." Then they called in Michael, who was sitting outside and told him they had released me. I was officially released at the next Indianapolis North Stake conference, with all 12 wards in attendance. I wanted to please Heavenly Father, but, honestly, the release was a great relief.

So, no, Lynn did NOT fabricate this 12 hour thing that she went through on Sundays. It was NOT "fabricated hype." Seems to me, making unfounded accusations against someone without a shred of proof is a sin....

 

[Aaron32]

Okay, here is an excerpt from Lynn's book Unveiling Grace, p. 80. She and her family were living in Indiana at the time.

One of the reasons they were gone for so long was because of the long distances they had to travel on Sunday. Indiana isn't the hotbed of Mormonism as Utah is, and the two wards Lynn was assigned to were miles apart.

These wards were fairly far apart and Lynn spent part of the time on the road, going between the two wards. Her husband Mike also had a lot of duties that took up a lot of time on Sundays, but I won't go into that on here.

This was a typical Sunday for Lynn and her family when they lived in Indiana. But she did finally go to her superior in the stake presidency, and laid out all that she was going through, trying to be a full-time mother of 4 kids, and hold all of her callings, take care of elderly parents, and why she should have to hire a babysitter to take care of her kids on Sunday, because of having to fulfill all of her callings. His reaction was the "standard LDS mantra", p. 82:

So, no, Lynn did NOT fabricate this 12 hour thing that she went through on Sundays. It was NOT "fabricated hype." Seems to me, making unfounded accusations against someone without a shred of proof is a sin....

Thanks for the text. This helps alot. I was able to find the book on Google books. (source)
I have a couple thoughts on this.
She's saying she was called as the Stake Primary President in the same year that her daughter Kate was born. Keep in mind, this is 3 years after they joined the Church? That's extremely hard to believe. Most Stake Leadership that I know have always been more elderly, or have been membership in the Church for a while. It strains credulity that a mom of a newborn, or even pregnant would be given that call in the first place.
She says she visited a ward, and spoke in their Sacrament meeting. (this is completely ludicrous). The only people in Stake Leadership who speak in another's ward are either from the Stake Presidency. Then she says she attended the other two hours to monitor. THEN she says she went to another ward and do the same thing for a ward that started at 2:00. Why would a ward start church at 2:00 if they are in separate buildings? If this happens it all, it's usually because 3 wards will share a building. One goes in at 9, another 11, and the 3rd ward. So, if she was better at planning, she probably could have visited 3 wards in one building, and then a couple wards in another. It seems like a completely distorted account (which matches her distorted teachings about our church). Moreover, why would she stay for the entire 3 hour block again? There would be no purpose for that. It simply doesn't make sense.
But let's say all of this is true. There's no way this is a "typical" Sunday. Stake Leaders don't visit wards on a regular basis, especially if the wards are dispersed hours apart. (I lived in Sioux City, IA and our stake building was in Sioux Falls, SD - about 90 mins away. I have never EVER had a stake primary president come and speak to our ward.)

I would challenge you, Bonnie, to now get a second sample of data, and locate the stake in your area, and find out who the stake primary president is, and ask them questions if Lynn's account seems to be reasonable to them, and compare and contrast with their experience. If you'd like, I can do that myself in my area and tell you my findings, but my guess is, that you wouldn't believe me.

If you'd like more information on the tasks Primary Stake Presidents do, here a link: https://site.churchofjesuschrist.or...ary-president/what-should-i-focus-on?lang=eng

Reading the rest of the chapter (as much as I could), she seems to place herself as a victim. As if she had no choice in how she lived her life, or the callings that were given to her. If I could travel back in time and speak to Lynn Wilder, these are the two scriptures I would share with her:

D&C 4:3 Therefore, if ye have desires to serve God ye are called to the work;
She clearly didn't have the desire. She should not have accepted those callings.

Moroni 7:
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

I'm pretty sure Lynn thought she was earning salvation, but that's simply not the case.
Given this statement, in the same chapter, it's clear her experience was not the same as my experience: "It was certainly not normal for Heavenly Father to speak to me. I had the experience of a sure encounter a few times in my adult life."
Also, she says "I believed callings came from the Lord Jesus Christ, to my priesthood callings to me. How could I refuse?"

It's irony that she complained about her church callings at the cost of raising her children, but clearly had no problem going back to school and being a working mom. This was clearly a major crack in her testimony of the Church.

 

[Theo1689]

She's saying she was called as the Stake Primary President in the same year that her daughter Kate was born. Keep in mind, this is 3 years after they joined the Church? That's extremely hard to believe. Most Stake Leadership that I know have always been more elderly, or have been membership in the Church for a while. It strains credulity that a mom of a newborn, or even pregnant would be given that call in the first place.

So what do you do?
Without knowing any specific facts, you call Lynn a liar.
SHOCKER.
And incredibly uncharitable.

She says she visited a ward, and spoke in their Sacrament meeting. (this is completely ludicrous). The only people in Stake Leadership who speak in another's ward are either from the Stake Presidency.

Is that a written policy?
If so, show us where.
If not, don't call her a liar simply because her experience doesn't match your experience.

And yes, I'm defending a woman.
Both because it's the right thing to do, and because she's not here to defend herself.
You attack her behind her back, without even trying to reach out to learn the actual facts.
Shameful!

Then she says she attended the other two hours to monitor. THEN she says she went to another ward and do the same thing for a ward that started at 2:00. Why would a ward start church at 2:00 if they are in separate buildings?

I don't know.
Maybe you should ask Lynn, instead of simply ASSUMING it's a lie.

Moreover, why would she stay for the entire 3 hour block again? There would be no purpose for that. It simply doesn't make sense.

So just because YOU don't understand it, it must be a lie, right?
If it dosn't make sense to you, the SENSIBLE thing to do would be to ask Lynn about it and get first-hand information, instead of immediately going off and calling everyone a liar.

But let's say all of this is true. There's no way this is a "typical" Sunday.

Because you were there, and she wasn't, right?

Stake Leaders don't visit wards on a regular basis, especially if the wards are dispersed hours apart. (I lived in Sioux City, IA and our stake building was in Sioux Falls, SD - about 90 mins away. I have never EVER had a stake primary president come and speak to our ward.)

So since you never prsonally experienced it, then it's impossible, and she's a liar.
Is that it?

I would challenge you, Bonnie, to now get a second sample of data, and locate the stake in your area, and find out who the stake primary president is, and ask them questions if Lynn's account seems to be reasonable to them,

That's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard!
Lynn's experience was an historical FACT.
You don't go around testing facts by asking people about their personal opinions.
Sheesh!

and compare and contrast with their experience.

But we're not TALKING about "their" experience.
We're talking about LYNN's experience!
What part of that don't you understand?

If you'd like, I can do that myself in my area and tell you my findings, but my guess is, that you wouldn't believe me.

I know I certainly wouldn't.

Reading the rest of the chapter (as much as I could), she seems to place herself as a victim. As if she had no choice in how she lived her life, or the callings that were given to her. If I could travel back in time and speak to Lynn Wilder, these are the two scriptures I would share with her:

D&C 4:3 Therefore, if ye have desires to serve God ye are called to the work;

Yes, and undoubtedly her bishop would have guilted her into continuing.
Just look at how your church "affirms" each new prophet.
Do you SINCERELY think that every single LDS is determining for themselves whether to day "yeah" or "nay"? Of course not, they know they're all supposed to obey and blindly put up their hands like sheep.

She clearly didn't have the desire. She should not have accepted those callings.

As if she had a choice...

I'm pretty sure Lynn thought she was earning salvation, but that's simply not the case.

It's what your church teaches.

Also, she says "I believed callings came from the Lord Jesus Christ, to my priesthood callings to me. How could I refuse?"

Exactly.
Guilt-tripping.
Voluntold.

It's irony that she complained about her church callings at the cost of raising her children, but clearly had no problem going back to school and being a working mom.

Well, by this time her kids were grown, and either in school, college, or mission. So it's not like being a stay-at-home mom would have given her more family time. It really looks like you're grasping at straws by this point.

And the time issue is with Sunday family time, when the children are home from school or college.

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks for the text. This helps alot. I was able to find the book on Google books. (source)
I have a couple thoughts on this.
She's saying she was called as the Stake Primary President in the same year that her daughter Kate was born. Keep in mind, this is 3 years after they joined the Church? That's extremely hard to believe.

She did not say she was CALLED to be the Primary president the year Katie was born. She just said she WAS the Primary president when she was born.

And I don't think this happened three years after they joined the church. This incident I quoted when Katie was a tiny baby happened in 1988. I think they joined around 1975 or '76, because they were Mormons for 30 years before leaving in 2005 or 2006. They first went through the temple in 1979. Also, Remember I didn't put down everything.

Most Stake Leadership that I know have always been more elderly, or have been membership in the Church for a while. It strains credulity that a mom of a newborn, or even pregnant would be given that call in the first place.

It might strain your credulity, but that was her experience in Indiana. But she was a member for some years before she had this calling.

She says she visited a ward, and spoke in their Sacrament meeting. (this is completely ludicrous).

Why? She was the Stake Primary President. She spoke AS the Primary president.

The only people in Stake Leadership who speak in another's ward are either from the Stake Presidency.

She was the stake PRIMARY President. She was responsible for the Primary grades in all 12 wards in her stake.
This was in late 1988. Again, this was her experience, not yours. And in Indiana.

Then she says she attended the other two hours to monitor. THEN she says she went to another ward and do the same thing for a ward that started at 2:00. Why would a ward start church at 2:00 if they are in separate buildings?

It could be because there were a number of Mormons living near this building and they all couldn't fit in to worship in the morning, so there were several services spread throughout the day. That has happened at some large Evangelical churches, where they are several services throughout the day, to accommodate everyone.

If this happens it all, it's usually because 3 wards will share a building. One goes in at 9, another 11, and the 3rd ward. So, if she was better at planning, she probably could have visited 3 wards in one building, and then a couple wards in another. It seems like a completely distorted account (which matches her distorted teachings about our church).

She distorted nothing about your teachings. She can only go by her own experiences. I can try to write to her about this, as I have written to her in the past. She and other former Mormons have a website that ministers to former Mormons, or Mormons who want to leave your church, but are not sure how to do so. There is an email address for her on it.

Moreover, why would she stay for the entire 3 hour block again?

She was to observe them, to make sure they were teaching properly, to give them feedback and training. She was the Indianapolis North Stake Primary President and responsible for all of that.

There would be no purpose for that. It simply doesn't make sense.
But let's say all of this is true. There's no way this is a "typical" Sunday. Stake Leaders don't visit wards on a regular basis, especially if the wards are dispersed hours apart. (I lived in Sioux City, IA and our stake building was in Sioux Falls, SD - about 90 mins away. I have never EVER had a stake primary president come and speak to our ward.)

She wasn't a stake leader, but the North stake PRIMARY President. Or is that considered a leader? Such a person deals with the primary grade children in your Sunday Schools, correct? Also, she lived in a far corner of her stake, and it took her a long time to drive to some of the wards. Though responsible for Primary teaching in 12 wards, she obviously could not visit each and every one of them each Sunday!

I would challenge you, Bonnie, to now get a second sample of data, and locate the stake in your area, and find out who the stake primary president is, and ask them questions if Lynn's account seems to be reasonable to them, and compare and contrast with their experience. If you'd like, I can do that myself in my area and tell you my findings, but my guess is, that you wouldn't believe me.

Sorry, but I am not getting involved with the Mormons in my area. There aren't any close by, anyway. Also, as you pointed out to BoJ, your church has cut back on all of the time its members spend in their callings on Sunday, so they can spend more time with their families then. Lynn was relating to things that happened to her over 25 years ago. As you stated, things in your church have changed.

If you'd like more information on the tasks Primary Stake Presidents do, here a link: https://site.churchofjesuschrist.or...ary-president/what-should-i-focus-on?lang=eng

Reading the rest of the chapter (as much as I could), she seems to place herself as a victim. As if she had no choice in how she lived her life, or the callings that were given to her. If I could travel back in time and speak to Lynn Wilder, these are the two scriptures I would share with her:

D&C 4:3 Therefore, if ye have desires to serve God ye are called to the work;
She clearly didn't have the desire. She should not have accepted those callings.

Yes, she did have the desire, until her callings just became too much for her, juggling 4 children, a part time job, helping to care for her husband's elder parents, etc.

Moroni 7:
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

thanks, but that isn't the Bible and quoting from the BoM means nothing to me.

I'm pretty sure Lynn thought she was earning salvation, but that's simply not the case.

But that is what your church teaches--earning eternal life by obeying all sorts of rules and jumping through all sorts of Mormon hoops--like keeping a temple recommend for the rest of one's life.

Given this statement, in the same chapter, it's clear her experience was not the same as my experience: "It was certainly not normal for Heavenly Father to speak to me. I had the experience of a sure encounter a few times in my adult life."
Also, she says "I believed callings came from the Lord Jesus Christ, to my priesthood callings to me. How could I refuse?"

So? She had been trained in your church to accept the authority of her priesthood holders, bishops, stake presidents, etc. and etc. Aren't you all? And she DID accept her callings, did she not? Until her baby daughter got really sick with an ear ache and wound up in the hospital. That sort of was the straw that broke the camel's back for her.

It's irony that she complained about her church callings at the cost of raising her children, but clearly had no problem going back to school and being a working mom. This was clearly a major crack in her testimony of the Church.

That was different. You would need to read the book to find out why. Also, her children were a little older then. And the reason why she went back was a very interesting one. But the Dancer of Grace had a purpose for it. In fact nearly everything she experienced had a purpose, for when she and her family finally found the truth and left your church for good.

God bless you, Aaron, and lead you to the truth, as He did the Wilders.

 

[Theo1689]

She says she visited a ward, and spoke in their Sacrament meeting. (this is completely ludicrous).

What's ludicrous is that she NEVER said that.
She said that her husband Mike delivered a report during the Sacrament meeting.

So do you really have such very poor reading comprehension,
or are you intentionally misrepresenting the facts?

This is why you have no credibility, Aaron.

 

[Bonnie]

So what do you do?
Without knowing any specific facts, you call Lynn a liar.
SHOCKER.
And incredibly uncharitable.



Is that a written policy?
If so, show us where.
If not, don't call her a liar simply because her experience doesn't match your experience.

And yes, I'm defending a woman.
Both because it's the right thing to do, and because she's not here to defend herself.
You attack her behind her back, without even trying to reach out to learn the actual facts.
Shameful!



I don't know.
Maybe you should ask Lynn, instead of simply ASSUMING it's a lie.



So just because YOU don't understand it, it must be a lie, right?
If it dosn't make sense to you, the SENSIBLE thing to do would be to ask Lynn about it and get first-hand information, instead of immediately going off and calling everyone a liar.



Because you were there, and she wasn't, right?



So since you never prsonally experienced it, then it's impossible, and she's a liar.
Is that it?



That's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard!
Lynn's experience was an historical FACT.
You don't go around testing facts by asking people about their personal opinions.
Sheesh!



But we're not TALKING about "their" experience.
We're talking about LYNN's experience!
What part of that don't you understand?



I know I certainly wouldn't.



Yes, and undoubtedly her bishop would have guilted her into continuing.
Just look at how your church "affirms" each new prophet.
Do you SINCERELY think that every single LDS is determining for themselves whether to day "yeah" or "nay"? Of course not, they know they're all supposed to obey and blindly put up their hands like sheep.



As if she had a choice...



It's what your church teaches.



Exactly.
Guilt-tripping.
Voluntold.



Well, by this time her kids were grown, and either in school, college, or mission. So it's not like being a stay-at-home mom would have given her more family time. It really looks like you're grasping at straws by this point.

And the time issue is with Sunday family time, when the children are home from school or college.

It's okay, Theo. Aaron raised some interesting questions, and he has a right to ask them.

But it is rather....disingenuous to judge another person's experience by one's own experience. Years ago on the Lutheran board there was a Lutheran lady I was friends with. She had really bad experiences with not one, but two LCMS churches in the Chicago area. I have never had a bad experience in any of the churches I have been a member of and I have been an LCMS member since 1959. it would be ludicrous for me to claim this lady lied, because I had never experienced any problems. Also, Lynn's experiences I recounted happened in the late 80's. That was over 35 years ago. As Aaron pointed out, things are different now in the LDS church, and members are allowed to spend more family time together on Sundays.

I have read other books by former Mormons who also were given callings to perform not too long after becoming Mormons. It was as if that church wants to keep its membership too busy to question some of their more....unusual teachings. I have read Latayne Scott's book THE MORMON MIRAGE, Judy Robertson's book OUT OF MORMONISM, and James Spencer's book BEYOND MORMONISM. I also have three more books by ex-Mormons on my tablet, but I don't remember their names, it has been so long since I have read them.

 

[Aaron32]

So what do you do?
Without knowing any specific facts, you call Lynn a liar.
SHOCKER.
And incredibly uncharitable.

Is that a written policy?
If so, show us where.
If not, don't call her a liar simply because her experience doesn't match your experience.

And yes, I'm defending a woman.
Both because it's the right thing to do, and because she's not here to defend herself.
You attack her behind her back, without even trying to reach out to learn the actual facts.
Shameful!

I don't know.
Maybe you should ask Lynn, instead of simply ASSUMING it's a lie.

So just because YOU don't understand it, it must be a lie, right?
If it dosn't make sense to you, the SENSIBLE thing to do would be to ask Lynn about it and get first-hand information, instead of immediately going off and calling everyone a liar.

Because you were there, and she wasn't, right?

So since you never prsonally experienced it, then it's impossible, and she's a liar.
Is that it?

That's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard!
Lynn's experience was an historical FACT.
You don't go around testing facts by asking people about their personal opinions.
Sheesh!

But we're not TALKING about "their" experience.
We're talking about LYNN's experience!
What part of that don't you understand?

I know I certainly wouldn't.

Yes, and undoubtedly her bishop would have guilted her into continuing.
Just look at how your church "affirms" each new prophet.
Do you SINCERELY think that every single LDS is determining for themselves whether to day "yeah" or "nay"? Of course not, they know they're all supposed to obey and blindly put up their hands like sheep.

As if she had a choice...

It's what your church teaches.

Exactly.
Guilt-tripping.
Voluntold.

Well, by this time her kids were grown, and either in school, college, or mission. So it's not like being a stay-at-home mom would have given her more family time. It really looks like you're grasping at straws by this point.

And the time issue is with Sunday family time, when the children are home from school or college.

So, you're accusing me of calling Lynn a liar if I don't agree with her, and yet I'm a liar for disagree of how she describes Mormonism.
Tell you what, tell me how to get a hold of Lynn, and I'll happily confront her myself.
Lynn gave her perspective, I gave mine. And it's no surprise who you side with. I'm not going to descend into petty bickering with you.

 

[Theo1689]

So, you're accusing me of calling Lynn a liar if I don't agree with her, and yet I'm a liar for disagree of how she describes Mormonism.

No, when you call her testimony "ludicrous".
I'v got a newsflash for you, Aaron.. You're not ALLOWED to "disagree" with her.
YOU.
WEREN'T.
THERE.

Tell you what, tell me how to get a hold of Lynn, and I'll happily confront her myself.

I believe Bonnie can help you with that.
I believe the WIlders' webpage is called "Unveiling Mormonism".
There is contact information at the bottom.
By the way, that took me all of 2 seconds to find it on Google.
It's a testimony to your incompetence that you were unable to do that yourself.

Lynn gave her perspective, I gave mine.

Again...
You're not ALLOWED to "give your perspectve" on Lynn's personal experience.
YOU.
WEREN'T.
THERE.

And it's no surprise who you side with. I'm not going to descend into petty bickering with you.

Yes, of course...
You spend posts and posts explaining how you're not going to "descend into petty bickering".

 

[Bonnie]

No, when you call her testimony "ludicrous".
I'v got a newsflash for you, Aaron.. You're not ALLOWED to "disagree" with her.
YOU.
WEREN'T.
THERE.



I believe Bonnie can help you with that.
I believe the WIlders' webpage is called "Unveiling Mormonism".
There is contact information at the bottom.
By the way, that took me all of 2 seconds to find it on Google.
It's a testimony to your incompetence that you were unable to do that yourself.



Again...
You're not ALLOWED to "give your perspectve" on Lynn's personal experience.
YOU.
WEREN'T.
THERE.



Yes, of course...
You spend posts and posts explaining how you're not going to "descend into petty bickering".

I am not allowed to give out email addresses on here, but she is part of a group called Ex-Mormon Christians United for Jesus. I have a card she gave me when she and her husband gave a talk down in Florida over 11 years ago, at one of my church's conventions. I got her email off that, but it should also be on this website. But I haven't been on it in years.

 

[Theo1689]

What's ludicrous is that she NEVER said that.
She said that her husband Mike delivered a report during the Sacrament meeting.

It has been brought to my attention that she did actually say that, so I stand corrected.
But since Bonnie pointed out that is perfectly natural and expected for her to speak there as Stake Primary President, this seems to be a non-issue.

So do you really have such very poor reading comprehension,
or are you intentionally misrepresenting the facts?

Under the circumstances, the above remarks were misplaced.
So I apologize.

 

[Theo1689]

Chuckle.... well is that what she stated? Bonnie: on Sundays, that they wouldn't see each other for 12 hours on that day.

You wish to now correct your error and admit I'm right?
For Markk again, this was what I stated:
Richard7 said:
12 hr day? awe that is a really extreme exaggeration Bonnie... I have one of the busiest calling in the Church, Elders Quorum President and my Sundays are usually not longer then 5 hrs sometimes... why the exaggeration and dramatizations?

And how much of that 5 hours is travelling to different wards, Richard?