What Joseph Smith said:

[brotherofJared]

Your church DOES teach that men can progress to godhood in the highest level of the CK, called "exaltation", becoming gods and creators of worlds....correct?

Whatever God does, we can do. We don't believe God does what you all think he does. If he creates worlds, then so be it, but that's relatively insignificant to what he's done with us. We believe we can have children the same as he does, but even that is not as you all imagine it to be.

I don't know what you all think you're going to be doing for eternity, maybe eating fruit, who knows, but eternity is a long time. With enough time and resources, I think worlds won't be too difficult to create. Especially if the instruction manual simply states, "speak it and it will be so". Is speaking difficult to do? Isn't that something we already know how to do?

It just amazes me how you all continue to shackle God, limiting what is possible for him to do. It's like you don't believe the scriptures. Does it say, with God all things are possible? Why is it that that isn't?

 

[Bonnie]

Whatever God does, we can do. We don't believe God does what you all think he does. If he creates worlds, then so be it, but that's relatively insignificant to what he's done with us. We believe we can have children the same as he does, but even that is not as you all imagine it to be.

And none of this is remotely biblical. God is spirit, remember? Jesus said so, in John 4, and in context, He meant His Father. Whom should I believe--Smith, or Jesus Christ Himself?

I don't know what you all think you're going to be doing for eternity, maybe eating fruit, who knows, but eternity is a long time. With enough time and resources, I think worlds won't be too difficult to create. Especially if the instruction manual simply states, "speak it and it will be so". Is speaking difficult to do? Isn't that something we already know how to do?

Again, none of this is biblical. Right now, we have earthly bodies made for earthly existence. In heaven, we will have new bodies and made for a heavenly, eternal existence. I don't know all that it will entail, but it won't be lying around on clouds, strumming harps and eating fruit! Paul himself was given a vision of heaven, and it was so...wonderful and awe-inspiring, he could not even speak of it. And remember what the Bible says about this?

1 Corinthians two nine:
"
However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” — the things God has prepared for those who love him—"

It's like you don't believe the scriptures.

I do; it is Mormons who often do not believe the plain truth of Scripture.

Does it say, with God all things are possible? Why is it that that isn't?

We DON'T shackle Him at all! But neither do we say He will do something or has done something that goes entirely against scripture! And Scripture plainly says that "God is spirit" meaning HF, and NOT "flesh and bones". There is NO Heavenly Mother, Satan and Jesus are not actual brothers in the supposed pre-mortal spirit existence, etc.

All things may be possible with God, but that doesn't translate God will do ALL of those things. As Theo pointed out, there is a big difference between "God can't" and "God won't."

Most of what your church teaches about God and His progression from being human to godhood is utter blasphemy and entirely unbiblical--and yet, Mormons claim they believe the Bible. But apparently they only believe the parts they want to believe and ignore the other parts that destroy their aberrant theology.

 

[Theo1689]

There's nothing wrong with the King Follett Discourse. The issue is with the interpretation of it.

The KJD is anti-Biblical, that's what's "wrong" with it.

McConkie called it calculus where people who are not members of the church can barely handle arithmetic.

It's not nearly as difficult as that.

It is impossible to grasp the concept of exaltation if you can't understand the nature of God.

We understand the nature of God.
You don't.
That's why we know that the KFD is anti-Biblical.

One would think that a member of the church would recognize the value of anything a person who actually talked to God face to face would have to say.

Smith lied.
He never spoke with God face to face.
Did you actually SEE him speak with God?

 

[Theo1689]

Whatever God does, we can do.

Um, no.

We don't believe God does what you all think he does.

Nobody cares what you believe.

If he creates worlds, then so be it, but that's relatively insignificant to what he's done with us. We believe we can have children the same as he does, but even that is not as you all imagine it to be.

Okay... Go out into your yard, get some dirt, and make a man out of it, like God did.
I won't even make you create the dirt out of nothing, like God did. We'll give you the head start.

It just amazes me how you all continue to shackle God, limiting what is possible for him to do.

It seems you are incapable of understanding the difference between "God can't", and "God dosn't".

 

[Janice Bower]

What is KJD? Oh, is KFD?

 

[Theo1689]

What is KJD? Oh, is KFD?

Yes, I meant KFD.

 

[Aaron32]

Of course you do, you're a prophet with the holy Spirit.

"It was not that I would renounce the idea of being a prophet, but that I had no disposition to proclaim myself such. But I do say that I bear the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy." - Joseph Smith

Your opinion is noted. The haters were out to get him to stop the progress of the church. If it wasn't one excuse, it would have been another.

Maybe so. God doesn't reveal truth in darkness.

Actually, nothing has changed so long as eternal marriage exists. The end result is the same. If you're married, your wife will most likely insist that you not marry again in the temple because she doesn't want to share you with another woman in the life to come. It is very real and very much the same and the women of the church know this. Your denial doesn't affect its veracity one but. Polygamy can't be avoided so long as eternal marriage exists. Get rid of that, return to until death do us part, everyone becomes sterile at the resurrection and there won't be any need for polygamy.

"What do we really know about conditions in the spirit world? I believe a BYU religion professor’s article on this subject had it right: “When we ask ourselves what we know about the spirit world from the standard works, the answer is ‘not as much as we often think.’” - Dallin H. Oaks (Oct 2019)

 

[Bonnie]

There's nothing to repudiate. You guys are off your rockers. Your claims have no basis in reality and until they find a real foundation, your opinions about Smith remain superfluous.

They are not opinions, but facts. Smith did make many prophesies in God's name that did not come true. We have posted some of them on here many times. He lied about always having taught that God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were three Gods--but his BoM states otherwise, and so does the testimony of the three witnesses in the forepart of the BoM. He was a hypocrite, preaching the WoW, while often not following it himself. He married 14 year old girls and other men's wives, some for time, not just eternity, as I proved to you on here a few weeks ago, from the wives, themselves. And he often used blackmail to manipulate some of those women into marrying him, claiming an angel with a sword would kill him if he did not.

Does this sound like a man of God?

LOL. That argument has nothing to do with Smith or your claim that he lied.

But YOU brought up the PR thing--I did not.

Dig a little deeper, I'm not sure you could find a more irrelevant argument. The church was broke all during the days that Smith was alive.

Yes, I agree that your church was "broke" while Smith was alive and it still is "broke" and completely bankrupt spiritually, since it teaches a false god, false savior (who is Satan's actual brother), and a false Gospel that saves no one. It puts is members on a never-ending treadmill of doing and doing and doing some more, to make themselves "worthy" somehow of exaltation in the highest level of the CK after death--even though the true Jesus Christ of the Bible says "Done!" We can ONLY be worthy of eternal life because JESUS is worthy! And we get HIS worthiness by grace through faith in Him and what He did for us on the cross.

No. They can be wrong and not be false prophets. But in this case they aren't the ones that were wrong.

So, your prophets' bearing bad fruit is okay with you? Prophesying falsely in God's name is okay? That doesn't make Smith a false prophet? Teaching the "Adam as God" doctrine--and it was taught as doctrine--doesn't make Young a false prophet and false teacher? Even though he claimed God revealed it to him? Even though your church quietly rejected that doctrine after Young died?

There's nothing wrong with the King Follett Discourse. The issue is with the interpretation of it.

Baloney. It is written in perfectly understandable standard English, not Swahili. We don't need some secret decoder ring to comprehend it.

Personally, I find it remarkable that any member of the church would discard it simply because it's not in the scriptures. McConkie called it calculus where people who are not members of the church can barely handle arithmetic.

What Smith said in the KFD isn't that difficult to understand--maybe for people not indwelt by the HS it might be, since they have a vested interest in having a "testimony" that JS was a prophet sent by God....no matter what awful, ungodly things he taught.

The scriptures were meant for the world. It contains the arithmetic of the gospel which is built line upon line. It is impossible to grasp the concept of exaltation if you can't understand the nature of God. For this reason, it's not explicitly described or explained in the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

We know what the nature of God IS, from--guess what?--His own Scriptures, the Bible. There we see His nature, what He has chosen to reveal to us within its pages, by His Inspired holy prophets and Apostles.

Mormon Exaltation isn't described in the Bible because it is a lie. It isn't there. And it isn't in the BoM because Smith wrote that long before he came up with this three levels of heaven jazz, and exaltation to godhood nonsense. THAT is why it isn't in the BoM.

One would think that a member of the church would recognize the value of anything a person who actually talked to God face to face would have to say.

I don't believe for a nanosecond that Smith talked face to face with God. IF he really did see someone...otherwordly, it was a demon masquerading as an angel of light, as Paul warned us about.

Instead, we find members of the church who have never seen God or any heavenly messenger judging Joseph's work.

Yes, we are judging Smith's work by one standard only--the Bible's. Jesus told us false prophets and false messiahs would appear and even do signs and wonders to lead us astray. We would know them "by their fruits." And Smith bore rotten fruit. So did Young.

 

[Janice Bower]

Endowments:

Did Mormon Jesus have his endowments before his marriage? Why do Mormons need them?

 

[Aaron32]

Part 2, for Aaron:


So, your church has not repudiated Smith as the lying, hypocritical false prophet he was....has it?

Loaded question.

Oh, so your church is into the "PR" game???? Well, why not, since it is a money making corporation more than a true church.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matt 10:16)
"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)

Then that means that both Smith and Young were wrong, and that makes both false prophets--doesn't it?

Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, God was at the helm, and he hedged up the ways of the church, and provided valuable lessons for us to look back on. The nation of Israel was often led by unrighteous kings. It doesn't mean that they still weren't God's chosen people. My salvation isn't based on permit Joseph Smith or Brigham Youngs righteousness or lack thereof.

Yes, we have learned that he was a lying false prophet and a hypocrite, to boot! Jesus said many false Christs and false prophets would arise in His name and we would know them "by their fruits." And Smith bore rotten fruit! And marrying 14 year old girls and other men's wives is proof of his bad fruit. Plus, most of his "prophesies" that he made in God's name failed to come true. That alone makes him a lying false prophet.

Maybe in the end, Joseph Smith failed to be a true disciple in the end, and failed to overcome all things. (Or maybe not, that's between him and God.)
Regardless, that doesn't mean God didn't use him as a mouthpiece to restore His church.
David was a man after God's own heart, and he still gave into temptation. If David had died prior of his chance to repent, would the promises of Abraham be null and void? Not at all.
Jest as men could not believe anything good could come out of Nazareth, God has a way of testing our faith, because what God provides can sometimes be below our expectations.

Why? Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with telling us that false prophets would bear bad fruit. He didn't say "well, if they teach some good things, even though they might marry other men's wives, be hypocrites in following their own teachings, and lead profligate lives, that doesn't matter, because, after all, no one is perfect and we all sin."

Did Jesus say anything like that? Did God, in Deut. 18, when He told us how to spot false prophets?

No, he didn't. Jesus also said "if any man will do His will he shall know of the doctrine." I also don't see fault-finding of others as a method of identifying truth. So, can I trust you know your bible, Bonnie, but as soon as you make a mistake, then I should throw out all your credibility and everything you ever said? No. It doesn't work like that.
Another example, it's interesting that Protestantism carried on doctrines given by the church they broke off from. By your reasoning, as soon as the leaders of their time were wrong, they should have renounced the entire organization and started from scratch. That's basically what you're telling me.

One place? Here it is:

King Follett Discourse

King Follett Discourse

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Your church's website has changed drastically since I was on it last, which was probably a year or more ago. Their search engine is the pits, so I just Google it, and this link popped up, coming directly from your church's website. You're welcome! But your church seems to endorse it. I didn't see any disclaimer in the link, either.

You found as a subject listed in Church History topics. Don't confuse that with full fledged endorsement. It happened in church history, so they included as a topic of Church history.
You should have clicked in the links further to see the actual text in the Apr 1971 Ensign to see the disclaimer I was talking about, where it says: "Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete. …”"

Then why is the King Follett sermon even on your church's website?

Answered above.

What he taught in it is exemplified in the Snow Couplet which Smith endorsed. But if your church doesn't teach what Smith taught in the KFD, then that means Smith was a false teacher, teaching HERESY! So, why follow a false teacher and a heretic???

This is where Christians completely misunderstand Mormonism as another sect of Christianity.
We're actually not a cult as you suggest. We are to rely on the Spirit as our guide, and not the arm of the flesh.

"I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality." - Bruce R. McConkie

"The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.” - Joseph Smith

Yes, but it was recorded secretly. Precisely because it is a secret in your church, though not anymore, thanks to NewNameNoah.

You didn't answer my question: If the Church itself isn't teaching what you say we teach, then where are members getting these hidden teachings? Does NewNameNoah have a video where the KFD is taught? That would be interesting.

See the link to it from your church's website that I posted above.

But where is this taught in the curriculum? There's a gazillion topics to be searched on the Church website. You'd think if it was something actively promoted, you'd find it in something more recent than Apr 1971.

I don't think I wrote that, Aaron. If I did, please point out to me where I did. Thnx. But do check out that link.

So you admit we don't teach it. (Thank you!) and yet would want them to openly reject "many false teachings, like the ones he taught in the King Follett discourse"? Why would they openly reject a teaching that's not being taught?
You're the one making the case that Mormons should be called "Smithians", not me.
In contrast, the Church doesn't focus on how something should be declared false, but rather the method of knowing is something true, and people can gain the truth for themselves:

Finding Answers to Gospel Questions

Finding Answers to Gospel Questions

site.churchofjesuschrist.org

I am promoting no lies. The KFD exists and it is heresy.

Maybe, maybe not. If this is your focus maybe you'd be better off debating this gospel topic essay rather than simply regurgitate the message from the Nauvoo Expositor.

It is on your church's website. I posted the link.

And does that make it doctrine? No. It doesn't. See the link to the seminary manual above.

Yes, it is anti-Mormonism. NOT "anti-Mormon" so thank you for not writing the latter. And recognizing I have good intentions.

Thank you also for recognizing what it is.

I can't--Smith is dead and your church still thinks he is a true prophet despite evidence to the contrary.

Again, the all or nothing fallacy.

 

[Aaron32]

I have been representing Mormonism as honestly as I can. I know wiki isn't the best source, but the following IS heavily footnoted:

King Follett discourse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then be sure to recognize the controversial nature of the KFD when you talk about it, instead of making it central, and place it in it's historical context:
"The sermon was not always viewed in a favorable light by leaders of the LDS Church[6] or other denominations in the Latter Day Saint movement. It was not published in the LDS Church's 1912 History of the Church because of then-church president Joseph F. Smith's discomfort with some ideas in the sermon popularized by the editor of the project, B. H. Roberts of the First Council of the Seventy.[7] By 1950, it was included in the revised edition of History of the Church.[6] In 1971, the sermon was published in the Ensign, an official publication of the LDS Church.[1][8]

The ideas of the King Follett sermon were a precursor to the Adam–God doctrine taught by Brigham Young, second president of the LDS Church.[9] According to this doctrine, Adam was once a mortal man who became resurrected and exalted, followed by creating the Earth and again becoming a mortal being in the Garden of Eden before returning to heaven and to serving as the God of humankind. However, soon after Young died, the Adam–God doctrine fell out of favor within the LDS Church and was replaced by a more traditional biblical Adam and Eve theology. In 1976, church president Spencer W. Kimball stated the LDS Church does not support the Adam–God doctrine.[10][11]

LDS Church president Lorenzo Snow succinctly summarized a portion of the doctrine explained in this discourse using a couplet, which is often repeated within the church:
As man now is, God once was:
As God now is, man may be.[12][13]

The LDS Church today teaches that the King Follett discourse was "the most direct, public explanation" of unique doctrines, such as that of humanity's premortal existence and divine potential, that are alluded to in Latter Day Saint scripture.[14] However, with respect to the nature of God prior to creation, the church has stated that "Little has been revealed ... and consequently little is taught."[15]

Your church DOES teach that men can progress to godhood in the highest level of the CK, called "exaltation", becoming gods and creators of worlds....correct?

First, do you what "gods" mean? https://forums.carm.org/threads/is-mormonism-biblical-point-1-of-17-monotheism.15673/post-1234504
As far as "creators of worlds" that's speculative. I don't see anything in the Standard Works to confirm that.

I have seen that written. Well, that is partly what Smith talked about in the KFD. And the Snow couplet exemplifies this: "As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become." Snow showed this to Smith who endorsed it (some versions I have read leave off the "now").

Huh? No, Smith did not endorse the couplet that I know of. I'd be interested to where you got that tidbit.

I already know that. A lot of folks in your church don't know your church's history and some of its more....unusual teachings. But they DO know about their potential to become gods and creators of worlds after exaltation, don't they?

Not as much as previous generations. Those beliefs were spread by sensationalism not founded in doctrine, for teachers that thought the lesson given in the manual was too boring. And all members will tell you those teachings are not pertinent to our salvation. It's a cultural belief more than one that pertains to the religion.

False teachings and false prophets that lead people away from the true Jesus Christ to perdition by following false prophets that teach false gods and a false Gospel.

Yes.

Sorry, but that is utterly false! I am exposing the lies and false teachings of your church, that have been leading people astray from true salvation with the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, to believe in a false god and a false savior--Satan's actual older brother (!)--and a false gospel that saves no one. They are LIES. WHO is the father of lies, Aaron?

Before you can claim it a false teaching of the Church, you must first establish it as a teaching in our Church in the context of the rest of it's teachings.
If you want a biblical discussion on what we call "eternal progression", I'd be happy to have that with you. But if you understand the concept, it's not one that seeks to glorify SELF.
The rest of you statement is simply a slippery slope coming off a false premise. You're not a member, Bonnie. You're not willing to go the distance to prove that you understand. You're argument is simply a strawman.

Was Jesus doing the "devil's bidding" in Matthew 23?

No, nor was he inaccurately misrepresenting the religion of the people he was reproving. That can't be said of you.

I hope someday you stop resisting the Holy Spirit and repudiate Mormonism and turn to the TRUE Jesus Christ of the Bible who loves you dearly and Who alone saves and saves completely. God bless you.

I already have. Thank you!

 

[Aaron32]

No, it is fact. Your church says "Follow the prophets!" and it believes JS was a true prophet, correct?

A prophet is a prophet when acting as such. - Joseph Smith

All you need do is look at all of the false doctrines your church teaches--that HF is one of many gods; there is a heavenly "mother"; the Snow couplet; Father, Son, and HG are three gods; that Smith was a true prophet even though almost none of the prophesies he made in God's name came true; he married 14-year old girls and even other men's wives, some for time as well as eternity, sometimes using blackmail to do so ("an angel with a sword will kill me if you don't marry me!").....

And you claim this as an accurate representation of mormonism, do you? While mutually claiming to have the same understanding I do?
SMH...

Yes. Just compare the Jesus Christ of the Bible with the Mormon Jesus Christ, who is actually Satan's actual brother in the pre-mortal spirit existence. Where is that in the Bible?

You can start a new thread on that if you'd like. I think that would derail the discussion further that it already is.

Compare the true God of the Bible with the Mormon "heavenly father."

Please define the mormon "HEavenly Father" according to the standard works instead of the GodMakers. I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

FALSE! I am using the BIBLE as a lens to judge Mormon teachings!

And how do Mormons determine true doctrine in their Church?
How does that criteria match up with the Mormon teachings you speak of?

Since when is speaking the truth bad behavior?

When you claim falsehoods to be true.

I am not attacking you at all. You seem like a nice, reasonable person to me. What I do attack is false teachings that lead people astray from the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and full salvation, great and free, in His holy Name.

Fine. Then attack the teaching, but don't attribute those teachings to all Mormons.

Where have I condemned the world?

That can be illustrated by the answer of your question:
Do you believe if fear God, and strive to work righteousness, as Mormon, that I am saved?
What belief must I adopt from you in order to be saved?

 

[Theo1689]

You didn't answer my question: If the Church itself isn't teaching what you say we teach, then where are members getting these hidden teachings?

Loaded question.

Does NewNameNoah have a video where the KFD is taught? That would be interesting.

On the LDS website, there are over TEN pages of references to the KFD in Mormon publications.

It's quoted almost as frequently as the Snow couplet!

Search | The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

So you admit we don't teach it. (Thank you!)

She didn't "admit" to any such thing, Aaron.
Why are you misrepresenting her?

and yet would want them to openly reject "many false teachings, like the ones he taught in the King Follett discourse"? Why would they openly reject a teaching that's not being taught?

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
It's "not being taught" in the ten pages of links on the lds website.
Continue sticking your head in the sand, Aaron...

You're the one making the case that Mormons should be called "Smithians", not me.

Don't just about ALL of your testimonies include, "And I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet"?

Don't you have a hymn which basically says, "Follow the prophet"?

Maybe, maybe not. If this is your focus maybe you'd be better off debating this gospel topic essay rather than simply regurgitate the message from the Nauvoo Expositor.

We are not your slaves, Aaron.
You don't get to order. us around or tell us what to do.

 

[Janice Bower]

I would like to know if Jesus had his endowments. I was taught that LDS must have them if they want eternal life.

 

[Janice Bower]

I am confident that each of us has as his ultimate goal life everlasting in the presence of our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. It is imperative, therefore, for us to make choices throughout our lives that will lead us to this great goal. We know, however, that the adversary is committed to our failure. He and his hosts are relentless in their efforts to thwart our righteous desires. They represent a grave and constant threat to our eternal salvation unless we are also relentless in our determination and efforts to achieve our goal. The Apostle Peter warns us, “Be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

General Conference, October 2015

 

[brotherofJared]

"What do we really know about conditions in the spirit world? I believe a BYU religion professor’s article on this subject had it right: “When we ask ourselves what we know about the spirit world from the standard works, the answer is ‘not as much as we often think.’” - Dallin H. Oaks (Oct 2019)

What are you babbling about? Are you comparing your knowledge of things unseen to mine?

Oh. That's right, your a prophet who has the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. I keep forgetting that.

 

[brotherofJared]

Endowments:

Did Mormon Jesus have his endowments before his marriage? Why do Mormons need them?

I believe he did. What does it mean, I haven't been given all authority in heaven and on earth? If that is not an endowment then I don't know what is. It does appear that the early saints had them. I wonder who gave it to them?

It is difficult to kick against the pricks, isn't it? You have no idea.what you've done.

 

[brotherofJared]

Maybe in the end, Joseph Smith failed to be a true disciple in the end

LOL. Hahahaha. That's says it all right there. You have given yourself permission to reject anything you don't like that the prophet taught.

Hahahahaha. And you claim to be a member of this church. ?

 

[brotherofJared]

The sermon was not always viewed in a favorable light by leaders of the LDS Church[

Do u realize how useless this statement is without specifics? So, Wikipedia says it was not always viewed as favorable but it doesn't say what or why and, finally concludes that we don't know everything. I thank God every day that I ever heard the name Aaron32. Without him, the church would be lost. Thank God some one on the earth has the Holy Ghost. ? Now we know the source of Wikipedia. It's god-breathed!

 

[Janice Bower]

Which parts of the KFD are not true?