Excellent point.
Where does Jesus say to follow the Roman Catholic Church
- Thread starter balshan
- Start date
leonard03782
Well-known member
1 Cor 1:
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
You and Bonnie are both spot on.
I mean RCs say that they are RCs. They do not say I am of Christ. There first response is I am an RC.
leonard03782
Well-known member
My first thought is that they say "I am of Peter".
Atemi
Well-known member
You are spot on about insulting Peter. Imagine Peter allowing evil men who wallow in sexual immorality as leaders. He never would, he would enforce 1 Cor 5:11. But RCs who carry on about us being perfect, showing love to them etc don't expect the same from their leaders. Than claim that they must follow the pope, no matter what he teaches.
Bonnie
Super Member
Oh! Thanks for the correction! I missed that! But we can see that Peter was NOT singled out here as the spiritual head of the early church. He was listed along with Paul and Apollos. Which jives with what Peter wrote about himself: that he was an apostle and elder in the church--not the HEAD apostle, or HEAD elder. Thanks!
Bonnie
Super Member
Or rather "I am of Mary."
Bonnie
Super Member
They cannot show us where Jesus says these things in ANY words, or even implies them.
LifeIn
Well-known member
I think we can see good reason to expect that Jesus wanted his church to be a single community. We see the beginnings of such a community in the book of Acts. We see the church in Jerusalem taking an interest in correcting the church in Antioch. Even though Antioch and Jerusalem were two sets of people, they acts like a community. Those in Antioch trying to make Mosaic law the rule for all of Christendom and those in Jerusalem saying this should burden should not be laid on members. In the end, those in Jerusalem corrected those in Antioch. They acted to make the decision that would apply to all of Christendom. That is why today there are not any Christian churches that still require adherence to the Mosaic law. This sets the pattern for the church, which is composed of all believers in Christ and his teaching, to organize that community for the spiritual benefit of all. Thus "the church" becomes more than just a set of people who believe in Jesus personally. "The church" is the people gathered. And I stress "gathered" because that part is sometimes overlooked. It is not enough to simply be a believer personally. One must also be a believer communally. That is, they must be gathered with others, similar to the church in Jerusalem. The best example of how that works out is seen in chapter 15 of Acts where the church in Jerusalem gathers together to make some important decisions about what requirements should be placed on converts.
Granted this does not mention "the Catholic Church" or the "church in Rome" or leaders specifically. But it does call for something that looks a lot like a catholic Church where the small 'c' indicates the adjective "catholic", meaning universal. If we look around for the church today, it out to look universal in the same way the church at Jerusalem was universal. What the Apostles decided in Jerusalem was accepted by the other communities. There are several candidates today for a "universal" church. Several Protestant denominations have a centralized body that decides the issues of the day. If one were to look at what the can see today, there would be no way to say the church could only be the Roman Catholic Church. But if one were to look back in time to see when these various denominations were founded and became visible to the world most of them were not visible to the world for more than 600 years. There is only one Christian church that has an historical record going back farther than any other - back to the time when historical records were spotty at best. In other words, the historical record goes back as far as could reasonably be expected.
However, even if one does not accept the Roman Catholic Church as the one true church, they should at least accept the premise Jesus did found a church whose community is more than just the people in their immediate neighborhood or village, just as those in Jerusalem exercised authority over those in Antioch.
Atemi
Well-known member
Hahahaha.
They did not "correct" the church in Antioch....as the false teachers were coming out of the church in Jerusalem!
It was the church in Jerusalem that needed correcting...along with the horrible heresies that spread from there infecting other churches.
Those from the church in Jerusalem trying to make Mosaic law the rule.
It is amazing how much your religion relies on its audience not knowing the Word of God. That will not fly here, LifeIn. You cannot fool us.
Nope.
The falsehood continues.
The Apostles all already knew that no Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved.
That was settled a decade before!
The requirements were already known...they just were not living by them and it got away from the church in Jerusalem who were exporting that heresy.
Go ask the EOs which church that is.
LOL.
Your whole "authority" angle regarding Antioch as evidence of your sect is as lame as they come...and founded on a lie, as I have proven.
LifeIn
Well-known member
You are right in saying that those urging circumcision in Antioch were from Judea. They were causing difficulty in Antioch where Paul and Barnabas and some others were. They got into a debate in Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. But note what Paul and Barnabas do next. They decide to go up to Jerusalem and consult with the apostles and presbyters about this question of circumcision. So why didn't Paul and Barnabas just argue on their own with the false teachers? Just because these false teachers came from Judea is no reason why they could not convince those in Antioch that these false teachers were false. There is no reason Paul and Barnabas could not have told the false teachers to their face "Hey, stop teaching this false doctrine!" There is no reason they could not have handled it on their own. They were already in Antioch. It was about 300 miles from Jerusalem. Why did they decide they needed to travel all the way to Jerusalem and consult with the Apostles? Didn't Paul have the same authority as the Apostles had? Why would Paul and Barnabas have undertaken 600 miles of travel just to talk with the Apostles in Jerusalem? . . . . Unless...... unless Paul recognized that the church in Jerusalem had more authority than he did in settling these matters.
Atemi
Well-known member
If I am right, it makes us wonder why you tried to fool us into thinking otherwise.
No. Paul already knew that no Gentiles needed to be circumcised to be saved.
Have you not read your bible at all?
They did.
"This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them."
And even as they both traveled south to Jerusalem to clear up this false teaching:
"as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted."
Let me give you a hint: no circumcision required.
You seriously do not read the Scriptures you talk about at all. How can this be?
Except they came from the church at Jerusalem: HQ
"some went out from us without our authorization"
Even when they got to the church at Jerusalem, Paul and Barnabas were opposed among the church...in Jerusalem:
"some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
And we know this heresy had deep roots there from even other scriptures.
They did.
"This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them."
You're making all this up. Unfortunately, this is the millionth time I have had this conversation with a devout Catholic trying to fool the board.
Except for the fact that the heresy came from the church at Jerusalem: HQ
This matter was already settled and set in stone.
Paul said as much. The other Apostles said as much at the very meet up. You don't believe any of them.
Paul was NOT going to ignore the manifest work of God all those years saving massive numbers of Gentiles without circumcision. Ya see, unlike Roman Catholics, the Apostles thought it best to obey God rather than man.
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LifeIn
Well-known member
That still does not explain why Paul and Barnabas had to travel to Jerusalem to enlist the help of the Apostles. These false teachers were not authorized to speak for the Jerusalem church. They spoke for themselves. If Jerusalem had no authority in Antioch, what makes you think that anyone in Antioch would care what the "official" Jerusalem church said? Just because they came from there does not mean the problem needs to be solved there. The problem needed to be solved in Antioch where the problem was. If Paul and the whole Antioch church did not think the Apostles in Jerusalem had any authority there is no reason Paul needed to leave to go get a letter from Jerusalem and bring that letter back to Antioch. I can see how Paul might have wanted to visit Jerusalem eventually to warn the Apostles about the false teaching coming from their city. But first he would have settled things in Antioch without any outside help.
Atemi
Well-known member
Who said they were enlisting anyone's help as if they do not know the work of the Holy Spirit and how Gentiles are saved?
You think that is what they told all those churches they infected with their heresy?
That is where the heresy originated, so that is where it had to be tackled.
So much for Jerusalem correcting those in Antioch!
Dude....Paul and Barnabas went all the way to Jerusalem to find the same heresy being spouted!
The problem was in Jerusalem....which was infecting other churches.
Who said they did not have any authority?
You just make all this up as you go.
They had authority....and that was the problem. That is why Antioch and others in the region were falling for all this false doctrine coming out of HQ.
But Jesus is clear about who to follow and your leaders do NOT meet His standards. Therefore, it is not your institution and it really is just an RC scare tool to say that your institution is it. We are even informed as to how this church will look and it is not your institution.
Nowhere does it call for anything 'catholic' and nothing like your institution. You have offered not one piece of evidence that your institution is in scripture.
Jesus does not have authority over your institution. If He did it would not have centuries of scandals, false teachings and leaders who harm the flock. There would be no idols, prayers to the dead, co anything at all etc. Leaders who are vile sinners would not remain leaders, your institution ignores clear instructions in 1 Cor 5:11.
//
Hahahaha.
They did not "correct" the church in Antioch....as the false teachers were coming out of the church in Jerusalem!
=============================end quote.
And Posters; that is the record recorded in Scripoture
like it or not;
Peter and his minions were the ones responsible for all the "Damnable Heresies" in the 1st day church
it wasn't James nor John;
It was the church in Jerusalem that needed correcting...along with the horrible heresies that spread from there infecting other churches.
============================end quote
.
The Church in Jerusalem where John and James were;
knew what was going on, and James says
.
as John says
.
And Posters; that is the record recorded in Scripoture
like it or not;
"and Peter was to be blamed"
Atemi said:
Hahahaha.
They did not "correct" the church in Antioch....as the false teachers were coming out of the church in Jerusalem!
=============================end quote.
"And Peter and his minions were to be blamed"
.And Posters; that is the record recorded in Scripoture
like it or not;
Peter and his minions were the ones responsible for all the "Damnable Heresies" in the 1st day church
it wasn't James nor John;
Atemi said:
It was the church in Jerusalem that needed correcting...along with the horrible heresies that spread from there infecting other churches.
============================end quote
.
The Church in Jerusalem where John and James were;
knew what was going on, and James says
.
Forasmuch as we have heard,
that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,
subverting your souls, saying,
Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:
to whom we gave no such commandment:
as John says
.
1 John 2:18
Jonh says;
They went out from us,
--James says; that certain which went out from us ----
but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us,
they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out,
that they might be made manifest
that they were not all of us.
.And Posters; that is the record recorded in Scripoture
like it or not;
"and Peter was to be blamed"
leonard03782
Well-known member
Oh, Jesus has control and authority over every single thing that happens in the world. He just lets the sinful man choose his own way, whether it is right or wrong. Many men are blind or ignorant of the consequences of their choices. It is clear that the rc's on CARM are blind.
//
Oh, Jesus has control and authority over every single thing that happens in the world. He just lets the sinful man choose his own way, whether it is right or wrong. Many men are blind or ignorant of the consequences of their choices. It is clear that the rc's on CARM are blind.
===========================================end quote;
.
Buzz replies;
Yes he does; yes he does
and he has used evil men throught the Scriptures
to accomplish his will
Joseph sold into slavery
"and God ment it for good"
Pharoah in Egypt
Korah's Rebellion (Num.16)
Judges ch.9
1st Samuel ch.4
King Nebbie
Belshazzar (Daniel ch.5)
Cyrus the great
Darius the Meade
even a cheap Politition such as Mordecai
(story of Esther)
/
and leonard037882 says;
Oh, Jesus has control and authority over every single thing that happens in the world. He just lets the sinful man choose his own way, whether it is right or wrong. Many men are blind or ignorant of the consequences of their choices. It is clear that the rc's on CARM are blind.
===========================================end quote;
.
Buzz replies;
Yes he does; yes he does
and he has used evil men throught the Scriptures
to accomplish his will
Joseph sold into slavery
"and God ment it for good"
Pharoah in Egypt
Korah's Rebellion (Num.16)
Judges ch.9
1st Samuel ch.4
King Nebbie
Belshazzar (Daniel ch.5)
Cyrus the great
Darius the Meade
even a cheap Politition such as Mordecai
(story of Esther)
/