brotherofJared
Well-known member
Only if they actually follow the shepherd.
Will Mormons answer our questions or shove them aside?
- Thread starter Janice Bower
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dberrie2020
Super Member
It's clear enough to testify they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost:
Hebrews 6:4---King James Version
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Was that the faith one is saved through? If not--was it faith at all?
Hebrews 6:6---King James Version
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
When I dressed any animal--I was more concerned about washing the insides than the outside, but I always washed both, if I was going to partake of both.
So--is it the outside--or the inside--which is washed here?
1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Could you give us some examples of someone exercising "true, saving faith."?
Describing what sanctification looks like is not the same as saying works are necessary for sanctification.
He very clearly states numerous times that sanctification is the RESULT of salvation, not a means of salvation.
Once again, you're caught in a lie.
So, you think the Mormon leaders I cited do not know what Mormonism teaches? The Mormon sources I quoted were written by "spiritual infants"?
The men I quoted were not "ex-Mormons", but revered Mormon leaders. The sources I quoted are still in use in Mormonism today.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Is this what sanctification looks like?
1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Is God's grace necessary for salvation to occur?
Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Aaron32
Well-known member
How is a tree fruitful without fruit?
How does one have a godly walk without walking?
How do we do God's will without doing?
Eph 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
If works aren't necessary, why does Jesus refer to slothful servants as wicked or unwise?
Sure. Ok.
Justification precedes sanctification. We love Him because He first loved us. I get it. I have no problem with that.
How so?
No, I think you understood the quotes incorrectly - confusing exaltation (sanctification) with salvation (justification).
Yes. And you misunderstood them.
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Aaron32
Well-known member
Are you really asking this question?
Aaron32 said:
We've been over this many, many times now.
Once again, I did NOT confuse salvation and exaltation. It is YOU who never made any kind of distinction between salvation and exaltation, but simply said "works are a RESULT because of our love for God, not to earn a status or position". I have quoted your own words many times, saying "status or position", not "salvation or exaltation".
Why do you feel you have to be dishonest about this and falsely accuse me, even when it has already been proven that you never made any kind of distinction between salvation and exaltation, but merely said, "status and positions".
If you cannot argue honestly, just say so.
Aaron32 said:
I quoted them verbatim.
Aaron32
Well-known member
Ok. Well, clarification has been made. Using the quotes going forward, you can make note that according to mormonism, obedience doesn't contribute to their salvation, but to their exaltation.
I was referring to our motive. We obey BECAUSE we LOVE God - whatever status or position occurs is a natural consequence.
Likewise, according to your own source works are also necessary to have the status of "sanctified".
Yes. And whatever meaning you pulled out of them I illustrated from your own source that you also believe in the same general concepts:
- Yes, works are necessary to become sanctified and achieve spiritual growth.
- And it's also true that those works are motived out of our love for God, and our desire to glorify him.
If you ignore this and desire to beat me over the head with previous talking points then you're the one with the honesty problem, not me.
Don't tell me. Tell these guys:
The LDS Third Article of Faith states: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith)."
This clearly says that obedience to laws is required for salvation.
James Talmage says: "...redemption from personal sins can only be obtained through obedience to the requirement of the Gospel, and a life of good works" (James Talmage, in A Study of the Articles of Faith).
Spencer W. Kimball states: "living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation...trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentence when one merely tries to abandon sin" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.164-165, 354-355).
Bruce McConkie claimed: "Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation, and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved" (The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434).
And before you dishonestly accuse me of not knowing the difference between Mormon salvation and exaltation again, please note that each of these quotes plainly refers to SALVATION, not exaltation. Think you can understand that?
That's an argument to be had between you and the Mormon sources I cited.
Yet again, you lie. We do not believe that works are necessary to become sanctified or achieve spiritual growth.
To the contrary, I even explained to you in a previous post that sanctification is the result of salvation, not the result of works.
Please try to start telling the truth, if you can.
Yes, if you contradict Mormon sources, then I am going to cite Mormon sources to clarify what Mormonism teaches. If you don't like that, then maybe you ought to go back to your cult leaders and ask them to teach you to be a better apologist for Mormonism.
Aaron32
Well-known member
The laws and ordinances of the gospel of repentance are: faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the holy Ghost by laying on of hands.
The laws are what's required to receive Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
The ordinances are outward expressions of that.
Having faith and repentance to receive Jesus Christ is biblical. The ordinances demostrated are also biblical.
Yes. Do you believe you can be saved without receiving Jesus Christ?
Whereas, you believe you do not need to obey the gospel to be saved?
Miracle of Forgiveness is no longer in print. It is not doctrine.
“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.
“You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.
“Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted.” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 3:203–4; also cited in Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], p. 609.)
What's the alternative? Do you believe you can be saved by not following Jesus Christ?
Yes. And also not that your quotes are referring to the Law of the Gospel.
Ok. And you are not an authority. That makes you neither right nor wrong.
I have the scriptures to justify my beliefs and place the quotes in context.
Then you disown the source you cited?
You believe you can mutually be fruitful while producing no fruit?
That's irrelevant. Salvation precedes exaltation. So what?
Please stop ad homing me and stick to the topic if you can.
No, I haven't. Only in your skewed interpretation.
By all means do. Also don't forget the quote above to place all your stated quotes in context.
I have no problem with it.
Personal insults...is this the fruit of a Christian, or a work of the flesh?
Works of the flesh
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Fruits of the Spirit
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
You can rise above this behavior Mike.
It's sad that a so-called "cult follower" needs to point this out to you.
No, nothing at all in the Bible suggests we receive Cjrist by the gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands or following the law. The Bible is very clear that we receive Christ by faith, not by works and not by rituals.
Non sequitur. We're not talking about receiving Jesus Christ, but performing works to earn salvation .
Sure. I just believe we're to follow the Bible's Gospel, not your trash cult's gospel.
So, can you tell us when Spencer W. Kimball became unable to accurately represent Mormon doctrine.
The alternative is salvation by grace through faith, like the Bible says.
Do you think acting like a fool is going to attract people to Mormonism?
Wjat part of "by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" are you too feeble minded to understand?
That's why I cited Mormon authorities to show you that you're wrong.
Then you should have posted those verses, rather than just making declarations that were easily refuuted.
Not at all. Just pointing out that you continue to lie.
Irrelevant. You asked specifically about salvation.
Then stop lying, putting words in my mouth, and playing bait and switch.
Actually, I didn't offer a interpretation. I quoted them verbatim.
I did. Several times, in fact.
Is your constant lying the fruit of a Mormon?
Can you rise above your lying? Can you rise above putting words in my mouth? Can you rise above the dishonest debate tactics?
It's sad that you have no problem lying to defend your cult.
I've had enough. You're precisely the kind of fool Proverbs 26:4 talks about. You're dismissed. Continue on your way to Hell
Aaron32
Well-known member
True, but works are an expression of faith.
God ordained ordinances that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10)
The question of "How do we appropriately witness we receive Jesus Christ?" seems to be relevant to me.
So where in the Bible is baptism or the laying of hands considered forbidden?
When he stopped aligning with the scriptures.
To review the quote:
Spencer W. Kimball states: "living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation...trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentence when one merely tries to abandon sin" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.164-165, 354-355).
Kimball overstated obedience - one cannot "guarantee" total forgiveness of sins since one cannot guarantee they are "living all the commandments". Thus, we are saved by grace after extending our best efforts.
2 Nephi 10:24 "24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved."
So Jesus "set an example as to the way" is not "grace through faith"
No. How is this relevant?
I could ask you the same question. What am I not understanding?
You're pitting "the law of gospel" contrary to the bible. This is a false dilemma.
And you failed to do so.
What declarations of mine do you find unscriptural? I'll be happy to get the scriptural backing.
But you've yet to prove that.
Huh?
Just stick to the topic. If I'm playing bait-and-switch please illustrate it rather than attack my character.
Then what are we arguing about?
You believe I was wrong when I said "obedience doesn't contribute to their salvation" and then posted quotes.
That's implying an interpretation. But hey, if you're going to disown all your claims, then let's just get of this hamster wheel, eh?
I and expect you will in the future.
Can you prove that I'm lying outside your opinion?
Dude! It's really simple. Just stay on topic.
If my arguments are illogical, identify the logic, and where my logic breaks.
If I'm mis-representing you, show me what I said versus what you stated and explain where I'm getting it wrong.
In short, simply show evidence to back your claims, and hopefully we can end the contention and get to productive discussion and understanding.
If you think I'm lying, prove it, and I'll address it.
If this is what you believe, then you should have avoided the conversation to begin with.
But now you're guilty of Matt 5:22.
You project my dishonesty when all I'm doing to asking you to back your claims.
Do you really want honest discussion? then do the work rather than make empty accusations.
Magdalena
Well-known member
This question can be asked about every Mormon leader whose teachings have since been relegated to “not doctrine,” starting with Joseph Smith. And that’s a very large number of so-called prophets.
God doesn’t give His prophets false doctrine or false prophecies. The fact that Mormons have to scrounge thru what their leaders have taught and figure out what’s even their own doctrine, is a sign that they are false prophets Christ warned us about.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Just a note here, Mike---the LDS believe both sanctification and salvation is a result of God's grace.
The question then becomes, IMO--who does God extend His grace unto life?
1 John 1:7--King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Do you believe being cleansed from sin is integral to salvation and sanctification?
Aaron32
Well-known member
This view is based on the false premise that we are 'a cult' - checking out brains at the door, and blindly accepting what our 'cult leaders' tell us.
The reality is that scripture is written documents by God's chosen servants. We recognize those servant by the fruits of the Spirit. Not everything that was ever written by every prophet, king of Israel, or apostle, etc. was canonized into the Bible. That which was found worthy to be canonized was not "men" speaking, but God speaking through men.
Thus, mormons are not attached to the words of "men" despite their church calling, as anti-mormonism claims. It is given to us, by the gift of the Holy Ghost, to discern what God's will is, and teaches us all things. Sometimes that counsel is given through Priesthood leaders, or fellow members, or scripture, or impressions in our minds, but the counsel cannot invalidate gospel truths found in the Standard Works. And "the truth" will be vetted by experience. (See Alma 32)
1 Cor 3:
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
We believe the "Doctrine of Christ" that tells us "...if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do." (2 Ne 32:5)
BTW - Its our critics that scrounge through old writings to stir up doubtful disputations - reinforcing their "stumbling blocks" seeking for things they can't understand. (Jacob 4:14)
dberrie2020
Super Member
Could anyone explain how that would be any different than this testimony?
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Does that include this Prophet?
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
How is that "false"?
Could you please explain why you believe the Mormon sources and authorities I've quoted are wrong? They all believe works are required, not grace.
Could you also please explain why you disagree with 2 Nephi 25:23, which says "we are saved by grace, after all we can do"?
Of course. But I believe the Bible's teaching that the cleansing from sin is free and without any obligation or effort on our part.