Salvation by works

Bob Carabbio said:
The "Doctrine of election", and it's constraints, is by John Calvin.
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Baseless accusations up above. Any person can accuse, few of you accusers ever bring an argument, just accusations, and libel.

Nope, sorry Bob, the doctrine of election is from exegeted Scripture, a doctrine you loathe. Wonder how a person can hate a doctrine from God, and not God Himself, since it proclaims His ways?

Hmmm...
 
Bob Carabbio said:
AFTER you are convicted of your SIN, surrender to Him, Repent of your SIN
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this isn't Salvation repentance
it addz stuff©

what's next You must do?
"make Jesus Lord of your Life"?


God elected some to a unique Believer's relationship
'cuz None would choose that for themselves
 
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Joe said:
The revealed Word of God is clear that no one is saved by appealing to their good works. Jewish people of Jesus' day perished "For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Rom 10:3-4)

Salvation by works is an appeal to one's own righteousness.
  • These people hear the Good News of Christ and reject it placing their trust in self over God.
  • They are the ones who seek to justify themselves with an appeal to their good deeds. Often times at the condemnation of others.
  • Jesus spoke about them, "anyone who hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned." (Jn 3:20)

Salvation by faith is the appeal of a sin conscious guilty person calling out to Jesus Christ in belief to save him.
  • These people hear the Good News of Christ and obey by changing their mind and believing; that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them, instructing people to repent and believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
  • They are the ones who believe they are guilty before God of their sins. They appeal to Jesus Christ in belief, trusting God to justify them.
  • Jesus spoke about them, "whoever practices truth [does what is right--morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence on Him]." (Jn 3:21)

Biblically, salvation by works is not when one responds to God as instructed to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Their appeal to Jesus Christ is by faith, which comes from hearing the Good News of God in Christ. They are saved by God's grace when they believed. They take no credit for it. Their salvation is a gift of God. Salvation was not a reward for the good things they may have done, and they certainly don't boast they were saved by their goodness. They trust God to make them right with Him.

God Bless
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Is having faith a work?

Is asserting a choice a work?

Is professing that faith through the will-power of one's unregenerated flesh a work?

Direct answers in the form of yes, no, maybe, "It's unclear in the Bible," or "I don't know," will be appreciated. Supporting scripture even more so.
 
American Gothic said:
what would You consider False Editions to Salvation, Bob?
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ANY consideration of "Good Works" (Things we do) as anything else than the natural RESULT of Faith. (1 Cor 3:11-15)

Salvation is though Biblical FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, which CLEANSES (not just forgives) from SIN, and makes one PERFECT before God in Christ.
 
Josheb said:
Is having faith a work?
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No not according to Paul

Romans 4:4–6 (KJV 1900) — 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 
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Bob Carabbio said:
Psst!!! Its called "Calvinism"
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Can't substantiate what you claim eh?

I can!

3

John 6:44​

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
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62

Romans 8:29​

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
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46

Ephesians 1:5​

5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
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42

Romans 9:16​

16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
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41

Acts 7:51​

51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
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24

Romans 10:5-13​

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
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23

Ephesians 1:4​

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
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22

Romans 8:29-30​

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
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22

Ephesians 1:11​

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
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19

Acts 13:48​

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
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18

Romans 9:13-14​

13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
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17

Ephesians 2:8-10​

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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17

John 1:13​

13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
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16

John 12:32​

32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
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15

Deuteronomy 30:11-20​

11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
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15

Romans 10:17​

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
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12

Romans 9:17​

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
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12

Romans 5:8​

8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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12

Ephesians 2:1​

2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
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12

Romans 6:23​

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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10

Ephesians 1:13​

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
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9

Romans 8:28​

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
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8

2 Peter 3:9​

9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
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8

Matthew 18:3​

3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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1

John 3:16​

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
 

Hmm - At least 4 of your "Proof Texts" seem to go along with your "Calvinist theological paradigm".​

Romans 8:29​

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ephesians 1:5
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

OF course all of them indicate that the "U" in Tulip is false, and that "Election" is Conditional.
 
Josheb said:
Is having faith a work?

Is asserting a choice a work?

Is professing that faith through the will-power of one's unregenerated flesh a work?

Direct answers in the form of yes, no, maybe, "It's unclear in the Bible," or "I don't know," will be appreciated. Supporting scripture even more so.
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Hi Josheb,

Biblically, the answer is no to each question.

Faith is not a work. It is trusting something to be true.

Repenting-changing one's mind about the conduct of their life and turning to God in submission and belief in Jesus Christ to save one from sin is God's will, not a work.

Repenting and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, and calling out to Him to be saved is the God declared method that one freely receives/accesses the salvation that God gives to all who come to Him through Jesus Christ.

The reason why none of these things are classified by the bible as works is because works salvation is dependence upon self righteousness for justification, while these things are commanded by God in dependence upon Him to justify them. The people dependent upon themselves reject God's way of being made right with Him. And those who are dependent upon God to justify them repent of sins and turn to God in belief of Jesus Christ.

No one wills their self to be God's child; this is not how it works. But one can of their will respond to God in repentance and belief and call out to Him to forgive and save them, trusting Him at His Word. A person must willingly repent and believe in Jesus, who then gives them the right to become a child of God, and they are then sealed with the Spirit of God; becoming something they were not before believing, born from above into a new life that is alive and united with God as His child by His Spirit.

God Bless
 
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Runningman said:
This is saying that the righteousness we're supposed to do are the things God decided are righteous, not what we decided is righteous. Doing the righteous things God said to do is submitting to God and isn't an effort to establish our own righteousness.

Your premise is false as I just explained above. Please don't take that personally as this is important. Just want to be direct as possible.

We do have to do something to access the benefits of Christ's sacrifice:

1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Romans 2
7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Hebrews 10
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,



Let's be careful with saying works because it's a bit of a Bible buzz word and not everyone understands that works is not always a reference to Law keeping. There are good works, works of the Spirit, and work that is to labor.

What Jesus accomplished was a sin sacrifice.

This sin sacrifice is for our sins past and present, but there's nothing about the guaranteed forgiveness of future sins in the Bible.

The expectation is that after one is saved, they will continue walking in the light, having come to the knowledge of the truth, in order to have forgiveness of sins. This is all about true repentance.

Thus, going forward into the future, when we sin we are expected to confess these sins to God. To be clear, this is more than just lip service, more than just verbally and audibly confessing sins, but the expectation is there is repentance; the sincere desire and work to not repeat the same sins.

1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is real, undiluted, Christianity. The road to glory is not easy, but God is here for us every step of the way.
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Hi Runningman,

You have missed the key point of my OP, and that is to biblically define the difference between salvation by works and salvation by faith.

As stated in the OP, "The revealed Word of God is clear that no one is saved by appealing to their good works." This is true for everyone. No one will be able to say I did this or did that so let me into Heaven. This is reliance upon one's efforts to be saved.

The ones who are saved are those who rely upon God to justify them. They do good works that show their repentance and faith is genuine, but they do not rely on those works to save them. Rather, they are a result of being saved.

If the question is asked, "Why should I allow you into Heaven?". The answer sincerely must be, pointing to Jesus Christ saying because of Him. No one will be able to say because I did these good things, so let me in.

I hope this helps to clear up the purpose of the OP, and to define the difference between salvation by works and salvation by faith.

God Bless
 
Joe said:
Hi Josheb,

Biblically, the answer is no to each question.

Faith is not a work. It is trusting something to be true.

Repenting-changing one's mind about the conduct of their life and turning to God in submission and belief in Jesus Christ to save one from sin is God's will, not a work.

Repenting and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, and calling out to Him to be saved is the God declared method that one freely receives/accesses the salvation that God gives to all who come to Him through Jesus Christ.

The reason why none of these things are classified by the bible as works is because works salvation is dependence upon self righteousness for justification, while these things are commanded by God in dependence upon Him to justify them. The people dependent upon themselves reject God's way of being made right with Him. And those who are dependent upon God to justify them repent of sins and turn to God in belief of Jesus Christ.

No one wills their self to be God's child; this is not how it works. But one can of their will respond to God in repentance and belief and call out to Him to forgive and save them, trusting Him at His Word. A person must willingly repent and believe in Jesus, who then gives them the right to become a child of God, and they are then sealed with the Spirit of God; becoming something they were not before believing, born from above into a new life that is alive and united with God as His child by His Spirit.

God Bless
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I'm going to ask you to clarify that post because the word "will" can have two meanings in the sentence, "Repenting-changing one's mind about the conduct of their life and turning to God in submission and belief in Jesus Christ to save one from sin is God's will, not a work." Do you mean to say changing one's conduct is God's desire, or that it is God's volitional act? Do you mean to say God does the changing of one's conduct for the person instead of the person's own faculties changing the conduct? If a person is doin and act God desires, then isn't that obedience or faithfulness, and not faith (faith begets faithfulness)?

How can a person speak and that not be work, or an act of behavior?

You say the Bible "classifies" these matters. Where does the Bible say an action changing one's conduct is not a work?

Clarify also this matter of no one wills themselves but they must willingly repent, and do so such that the willing repentance, or changing one's conduct is not a work.



And note I am not asking about anything other than what I specifically asked. I am not asking about Gods will. I am not asking about being sealed. I am not asking about anything that comes after anything.

I am asking about three, and only three, specific concerns...

  1. faith
  2. choice
  3. speech

AND I am asking about these three specific things solely, exclusively only in the unregenerate. I am not asking anything about anyone any time after regeneration. The unregenerate flesh is a given. It is what was stipulated in the inquiry about speech.

  • Is faith a work?
  • Is choice a work?
  • Is speech a work?

Are these actions a person does or performs?
 
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