preacher4truth
Well-known member
Cool!
Now try dealing with the actual texts and arguments I've given, civic. And try staying within the context of the discussion.
Salvation by works
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
Now try dealing with the actual texts and arguments I've given, civic. And try staying within the context of the discussion.
American Gothic
Well-known member
"And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it.
But without a parable He did not speak to them.
And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples."
new teaching style -
the Leadership has already come up with the official reason for rejecting Him as the Messianic King (gospel of the Kingdom)
the Nation as a corporate entity will go along with that decision, and Jesus pronounces a judgement on that generation for it
individual Jews can accept Him as Messiah/personal Savior and be water baptized (a Jewish thing) to individually identify themselves with Him
the water baptism is NOT spiritual salvation, there is a physical judgement to come on the Nation they can escape
But without a parable He did not speak to them.
And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples."
new teaching style -
the Leadership has already come up with the official reason for rejecting Him as the Messianic King (gospel of the Kingdom)
the Nation as a corporate entity will go along with that decision, and Jesus pronounces a judgement on that generation for it
individual Jews can accept Him as Messiah/personal Savior and be water baptized (a Jewish thing) to individually identify themselves with Him
the water baptism is NOT spiritual salvation, there is a physical judgement to come on the Nation they can escape
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American Gothic
Well-known member
"Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times.
A wicked and adulterous generation (still) seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.”
And He left them and departed.
no more miracles, except dead persons being raised
A wicked and adulterous generation (still) seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.”
And He left them and departed.
no more miracles, except dead persons being raised
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Except, of course the "Doctrine of Election" is totally USELESS. People who ARE "elect" don't know it until they become Born Again, and infilled by the Holy SPirit. And People who "Aren't elect" don't know there is such a thing. Consequently it's just another "theological anomaly" of no real value.
American Gothic
Well-known member
And try staying within the context of the discussion.
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Except that you're wrong since Scripture teaches it. Thus it isn't USELESS.
Such profundity. Ya think? And what a totally useless thing for them to discover. What a silly thing for God to come up with. Maybe you can tell Him how useless this revelation and teaching of His is?
This is of no consequence.
Your ridicule of Biblical truth is duly noted.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
SO What Good (to you) is a "Doctrine" that has absolutely no practical application. What VALUE did the "Doctrine of election" have FOR YOU before you were saved, and what practical value does it have now (that you supposedly know that you were "elect", but didn't know it then)??
preacher4truth
Well-known member
You're the one assuming it has no practical value in the face of God, not me. That burden lies on you, not me. Your teaching that it has no practical value is foolish.
Keep talking Bob. Better yet, stop.
That is of no consequence. God's word and and the value of it isn't dependent upon ME. Go learn what that means.
LOL! I see, you think man is the determining factor of the degree of the value of God's truths as if we stand to give the judgment thereof. Your premise is foolish.
Its value lies within the facts of its teachings that are edifying for believers. Ephesians 1 lines this out.
SO tell me again how the Biblical doctrine of election is USELESS since God determined for us to know it Bob.
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Ladodgers6
Guest
The Calvinist version of election has no practical application nor value whatsoever to Born-Again Christians.
At best, the Calvinist version of election is somewhat a throwback to the OT times when events leading up to Christ's Atonement, were meticulously preordained by God. But the Calvinist version still fails in that instance because salvation is not preordained anywhere in the Bible. In fact, 2 Th 2:13 declares that God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, thus destroying unconditional election to salvation.
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Ladodgers6
Guest
See what I mean @Howie, they don't know, what we believe! They cannot distinguish between Law & Gospel, or Justification & Sanctification. Notice he's line of comment, we hold to One Plan of Salvation, which is the Gospel of Christ! Here Howie I got something for you. Let me know if this sounds familiar.
For the Moralist Pelagius, the idea that moral responsibility entails moral ability was a first principle. If God holds us responsible to act in a certain way, he reasoned, it must be within OUR POWER to act in that way. If not, God would be unjust in holding us responsible. So Pelagius rejected Augustine's doctrine of original sin, the idea that Adam's guilt and corruption were passed on to all subsequent human beings. Adam's sin affects us only insofar as he set us a poor example to follow. So, then, all mankind born after Adam were basically good, and could use Adam example as a cautionary tale, not to follow. But this then raises a lot of questions for me. If this was the case, why do all people die? Why haven't seen or heard of one perfectly sinless person? Scripture states that all of us are form in sin form the womb! Romans 5:12-21, Paul states that all mankind are sinners and guilty through One Man's Trespass, and Death reigns over all of us. Even over those between Adam & Moses who had no Law, well is they did not have the Law, sin is not counted, but why did death still reign over them?
The theologies of Augustine and Pelagius collided. The controversy between the two men carried over the better part of two decades. Both had their supporters, but the courts of the church judged decisively against the views of Pelagius. Pelagianism was condemned at the ecumenical Council of Ephesus (431).
So then what were they to do? Semi-Pelagianism comes into the picture, arguing for a weakened free-will: "For although free choice is damaged by sin, it is nevertheless not extinguished by it. And although it has become so lame in the process that before we receive grace we are more readily inclined toward evil than good, yet it is not altogether cut out...(Desiderius Erasmus)"
So what Erasmus is saying, is that there's still this little fire inside that can save him or her from this doom, if only they would do something, sound familiar? But they can't have it both ways, either sinners are dead or alive, there's no third category here, between Life and Death! This paradigm insists one can obtain Grace by their efforts and will, apart from the Regenerated power of Grace of God! (Robert Peterson & myself). I added to it.
What, if anything, do humans beings contribute to the process of Divine Grace?
The Cross of Christ is God's greatest demonstration that man is utterly helpless to attain Grace.
By Grace Alone and God's Plan of Redemption!
For the Moralist Pelagius, the idea that moral responsibility entails moral ability was a first principle. If God holds us responsible to act in a certain way, he reasoned, it must be within OUR POWER to act in that way. If not, God would be unjust in holding us responsible. So Pelagius rejected Augustine's doctrine of original sin, the idea that Adam's guilt and corruption were passed on to all subsequent human beings. Adam's sin affects us only insofar as he set us a poor example to follow. So, then, all mankind born after Adam were basically good, and could use Adam example as a cautionary tale, not to follow. But this then raises a lot of questions for me. If this was the case, why do all people die? Why haven't seen or heard of one perfectly sinless person? Scripture states that all of us are form in sin form the womb! Romans 5:12-21, Paul states that all mankind are sinners and guilty through One Man's Trespass, and Death reigns over all of us. Even over those between Adam & Moses who had no Law, well is they did not have the Law, sin is not counted, but why did death still reign over them?
The theologies of Augustine and Pelagius collided. The controversy between the two men carried over the better part of two decades. Both had their supporters, but the courts of the church judged decisively against the views of Pelagius. Pelagianism was condemned at the ecumenical Council of Ephesus (431).
So then what were they to do? Semi-Pelagianism comes into the picture, arguing for a weakened free-will: "For although free choice is damaged by sin, it is nevertheless not extinguished by it. And although it has become so lame in the process that before we receive grace we are more readily inclined toward evil than good, yet it is not altogether cut out...(Desiderius Erasmus)"
So what Erasmus is saying, is that there's still this little fire inside that can save him or her from this doom, if only they would do something, sound familiar? But they can't have it both ways, either sinners are dead or alive, there's no third category here, between Life and Death! This paradigm insists one can obtain Grace by their efforts and will, apart from the Regenerated power of Grace of God! (Robert Peterson & myself). I added to it.
What, if anything, do humans beings contribute to the process of Divine Grace?
The Cross of Christ is God's greatest demonstration that man is utterly helpless to attain Grace.
By Grace Alone and God's Plan of Redemption!
Everyone, notice that Calvinists rarely quote the Bible to support their views.
Instead of focusing on people, why don't you focus and meditate on the Bible, for example: 2 Th 2:13?
2 Th 2:13 declares that God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, thus destroying the myth of unconditional election to salvation.
Let's see if you actually believe what the Bible says.
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
True I see a lot of work going into what Augustine and Calvin believed and very little into what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
I don't even get what's so appealing about Augustine and Calvin. There are instances where they remind me of Muslims with their hard predestination and anti-humanity anti-Biblical views.
There is something of value. If you are a believer you are elected to be holy and blameless before God
Calvinist election however does not exist in the bible. No one is elected to be a believer or a reprobate
American Gothic
Well-known member
knowing we were chosen makes us feel Special tho ?
Actually, in your theology, you elect yourself by believing.
Last time I checked, I do not possess the super-human power to elect myself. You are watching too many super-hero movies these days which influence what you think humans are capable of.
Nope God's plan God's choice
its what his theology tells him