Are Messianics trinitarian?

Rachel Redux

Rachel Redux

Well-known member
I always thought Messianics were not Trinitarian.
I'm Church of God 7th Day (which is not Trinitarian) and I've posted on "another" popular forum for years.
Weeel...a couple of weeks, or so, I posted over there and mentioned that I was not Trinitarian and they banned me! Lol...if I wanted to stay, I would have to say I was "non-traditional" Trinitarian.
 
Rachel Redux said:
I always thought Messianics were not Trinitarian.
I'm Church of God 7th Day (which is not Trinitarian) and I've posted on "another" popular forum for years.
Weeel...a couple of weeks, or so, I posted over there and mentioned that I was not Trinitarian and they banned me! Lol...if I wanted to stay, I would have to say I was "non-traditional" Trinitarian.
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Did they give you the specific reason? Or did it just come out of the blue???
 
Hawkeye said:
Did they give you the specific reason? Or did it just come out of the blue???
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Yes. The reason was that non-trinitarians are not allowed to post on their forums. But I've done it for probably 15 years. I assumed that Messianics were non-trinitarians.
 
Rachel Redux said:
Yes. The reason was that non-trinitarians are not allowed to post on their forums. But I've done it for probably 15 years. I assumed that Messianics were non-trinitarians.
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Rachel.......it sounds to me that you're better off without them.

What in the world is a non traditional trinitarian.........????
 
Hawkeye said:
Rachel.......it sounds to me that you're better off without them.

What in the world is a non traditional trinitarian.........????
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Something they made up, I guess. And yes, I'm better off without them. I refused to change my "label".
 
you can check Statements of Faith for Messianic organizations and localized groups

"We believe that the Shema, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Genesis 1:1 (Elohim: God); Genesis 1:26 “Let Us make man in Our image”; Genesis 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons
mjaa.org

Statement of Faith - Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

mjaa.org mjaa.org

"There is one God, who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Every divine action in the world is accomplished by the Father working through the Son and in the power of the Spirit. This God has revealed Himself in creation and in the history of Israel as transmitted in Scripture."
www.umjc.org

Statement of Faith — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

www.umjc.org www.umjc.org

I personally struggle with the concept of a He being a They, so I would have just put "God" in place of He
like someone else pointed out over on the Judaism forum, "Elohim judge" is literally "they judge"

so when God is referred to in "He" sort of terms in Scripture, I will usually associate that with God the Son specifically
unless it is clarified in some way as the Father or the Sprit
 
"We believe there is one God eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit;
that all three possess equally all the same attributes, nature, perfections, and characteristics of personality."

Ariel Ministries Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God; that inspiration of the original autographs was plenary and verbal and, hence, the sixty-six books of the Bible are inerrant.
www.ariel.org www.ariel.org
 
American Gothic said:
you can check Statements of Faith for Messianic organizations and localized groups

"We believe that the Shema, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Genesis 1:1 (Elohim: God); Genesis 1:26 “Let Us make man in Our image”; Genesis 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons
mjaa.org

Statement of Faith - Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

mjaa.org mjaa.org

"There is one God, who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Every divine action in the world is accomplished by the Father working through the Son and in the power of the Spirit. This God has revealed Himself in creation and in the history of Israel as transmitted in Scripture."
www.umjc.org

Statement of Faith — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

www.umjc.org www.umjc.org

I personally struggle with the concept of a He being a They, so I would have just put "God" in place of He
like someone else pointed out over on the Judaism forum, "Elohim judge" is literally "they judge"

so when God is referred to in "He" sort of terms in Scripture, I will usually associate that with God the Son specifically
unless it is clarified in some way as the Father or the Sprit
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I've always struggled with the idea of He being a they. I don't get it. It does not compute for me.

John 17: 20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as you have loved me.

This is Jesus's explanation.
 
@Rachel Redux
Someone sent Someone, and Someone loves Someone
Jesus didn't talk to Himself when praying - He was praying to Someone in the Heavens


since I brought up God judging -

does the Father judge? yes, IMO already did as we were all condemned, some then rescued from that thru faith in Messiah John 3:18
does the Father judge now? since the finished work of Messiah during His ministry, judgement is then given over to God the Son John 5:22
does the Spirit judge? part of the work of the Spirit is conviction John 16:8

so, to my best understanding
God judges
"Elohim" judges
They judge - with different work and Personal role to play in that work of God
and as I said before, IMO when you are dealing with one specifically, you are also dealing with the other two by default
Jesus said they were One, and if you've seen Him it's as good as having seen the Father Himself

I personally think the "He" is a mistake, and it should be They
it is hard for some maybe most to understand, especially Jews

in Genesis, "God" created
and then later it is specified that the Son is creator and the Whom it ultimately is all to be for...
but the other two of course were involved, and credited as such as well

it certainly is always a head bender and I assume we will understand more in the Future
what sort of gave me a more plural view of God was the idea that the Angels are male Heavenly persons
and I don't think they have ever seen the Father either - only God the Son, in whose likeness they were made

my church org has the same language as Ariel -
"We believe that there is one living and true GOD, eternally existing in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
equal in power and glory; that this triune God created all, upholds all, and governs all things"

Statement of Faith - Calvary Chapel Association

calvarycca.org calvarycca.org

Aaron Budjen, a Jewish believer whose teachings I like (especially on Sin/sins and forgiveness)
in his own way he does affirm the "Trinity" and Jesus is God, but seems to have a difficulty with God being three Persons as well
but he had a past background in Rabbinic Judaism...
 
American Gothic said:
@Rachel Redux
Someone sent Someone, and Someone loves Someone
Jesus didn't talk to Himself when praying - He was praying to Someone in the Heavens


since I brought up God judging -

does the Father judge? yes, IMO already did as we were all condemned, some then rescued from that thru faith in Messiah John 3:18
does the Father judge now? since the finished work of Messiah during His ministry, judgement is then given over to God the Son John 5:22
does the Spirit judge? part of the work of the Spirit is conviction John 16:8

so, to my best understanding
God judges
"Elohim" judges
They judge - with different work and Personal role to play in that work of God
and as I said before, IMO when you are dealing with one specifically, you are also dealing with the other two by default
Jesus said they were One, and if you've seen Him it's as good as having seen the Father Himself

I personally think the "He" is a mistake, and it should be They
it is hard for some maybe most to understand, especially Jews

in Genesis, "God" created
and then later it is specified that the Son is creator and the Whom it ultimately is all to be for...
but the other two of course were involved, and credited as such as well

it certainly is always a head bender and I assume we will understand more in the Future
what sort of gave me a more plural view of God was the idea that the Angels are male Heavenly persons
and I don't think they have ever seen the Father either - only God the Son, in whose likeness they were made

my church org has the same language as Ariel -
"We believe that there is one living and true GOD, eternally existing in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
equal in power and glory; that this triune God created all, upholds all, and governs all things"

Statement of Faith - Calvary Chapel Association

calvarycca.org calvarycca.org

Aaron Budjen, a Jewish believer whose teachings I like (especially on Sin/sins and forgiveness)
in his own way he does affirm the "Trinity" and Jesus is God, but seems to have a difficulty with God being three Persons as well
but he had a past background in Rabbinic Judaism...
Click to expand...
It's a very difficult subject to discuss. I may not understand it perfectly but I just don't think the mainstream explanation is correct.
I believe in the divinity of Jesus but I can't go with the doctrine of Trinity as it is usually taught.
 
American Gothic said:
it is, and it's not really the OP

has yr view of Messianic Judaism changed at all?
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No. I considered considered joining a Messianic congregation at one time, and I still LOVE being part of a Passover seder, but I decided that it wasn't the best fit for me. But it surprises me that they're Trinitarian...I don't think they all are.
 
Rachel Redux said:
No. I considered considered joining a Messianic congregation at one time, and I still LOVE being part of a Passover seder, but I decided that it wasn't the best fit for me. But it surprises me that they're Trinitarian...I don't think they all are.
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I believe you're correct...........
 
the language of MJAA, UMJC, and another I found
"He is (or manifests as) Father, Son, and Spirit"
seems to me to be a bit oneness modalistic

as more Jews become believers in Jesus
it will be interesting to see how they handle/teach this issue
 
there is a Messianic group near me
in their website info -

they have a thing on the covenants, which is interesting
on the unconditional ones, they point that out
on the Mosaic covenant, they don't bother to point out it being conditional and temporary

in the New covenant they point out that "Torah" will be written on hearts
of course, they must mean the Mosaic law
and not what Jesus referred to as His commandments, and what Paul refers to as a new covenant law/Law of Christ

they also insist that dietary commands are still for everyone
and don't clarify that "clean/unclean" was relative to Mosaic covenant rituals

shame they discount such basics of the New testament/Paul
but then, Rabbinic Judaism hates Paul second only to Jesus Himself

so with that, I personally would not go there -
they also do that goofy dancing stuff
and the wife of the "senior pastor" also is referred to as a "senior pastor"
 
"We believe that there is one living and true God, eternally existing in three persons:
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; equal in both power and glory."

I think they get this correct
 
American Gothic said:
"We believe that there is one living and true God, eternally existing in three persons:
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; equal in both power and glory."

I think they get this correct
Click to expand...
He eternally exists in all of us who belong to Christ (were given to the son by the Father) according to Jesus, himself.
You know...that John 17 scripture where you basically said blah, blah, blah....
 
American Gothic said:
"We believe that there is one living and true God, eternally existing in three persons:
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; equal in both power and glory."

I think they get this correct
Click to expand...
Knowing what I know now, I would rephrase it to be the following.

We believe that there is one living and true God, namely, the Most High, eternally existing as his two powers: the Holy Spirit and the Son, each possessing the Wisdom and Power of God, respectively.

From the two powers come many persons (souls) in heaven and on earth. The angels and/or humans.

The two powers are manifest in the present cosmos as moral intellect and being (ie., matter or flesh). Just as the soul rises in being to become self aware, the spirit rises in soul to become good. God is good, therefore, the virtuous soul is made in his image.

The reason I refer to the Son as a power rather than a person is because the son is many things, nay, is all things in existence, summed up as one thing, having a life of its own, in whom we live and have our being. His life has a past, a present, and a future. The Son is in all of us and we in him.

making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. (Eph. 1:9)​
 
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