Vatican defrocks US Cardinal for sexual misconduct....

Not his first thought when shot. That to me means Jesus was not first in his thoughts. But as to whether he is saved or not, I have no clues. But his being made a saint shows the stupidity of praying to saints.
Then, if you don't know whether he loved or trusted Jesus, it is better not to throw judgements around. None of us can judge what a person thinks or feels, or their relationship with Christ. We don't have the authority to do that.
 
Misrepresentation of the other posters POV.
Not related to me is clear. She is not my mother at all in any way. Adopted by God who is not married to Mary, so no she is my sister in Christ not my mother. That is a load of RC hogwash.
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Then, if you don't know whether he loved or trusted Jesus, it is better not to throw judgements around. None of us can judge what a person thinks or feels, or their relationship with Christ. We don't have the authority to do that.
I said not his first thought when shot. I never made a claim about whether he was saved or not but your institution has made a call. I did not make a call once again deliberately adding to what I posted. To make it worse it was not what I said at all.
So, if Mary is not your mother in any way, that means:
1) You are not really Christ's sister; and/or
2) You deny the true humanity of Christ; and/or
3) You deny the virginal birth of Christ.
That is a lie
 
I said not his first thought when shot. I never made a claim about whether he was saved or not but your institution has made a call. I did not make a call once again deliberately adding to what I posted. To make it worse it was not what I said at all.
You said he didn't love and trust Jesus, that's pretty harsh.
That is a lie
Okay, so if you believe Jesus was truly human and Mary was the mother of the person Jesus, who had a human nature, how then is she not your mother in any way if you are his sister?
 
You said he didn't love and trust Jesus, that's pretty harsh.

Okay, so if you believe Jesus was truly human and Mary was the mother of the person Jesus, who had a human nature, how then is she not your mother in any way if you are his sister?
Because I have a mother and I don't need a pretend mother. I need Jesus and Jesus has never said Mary is my mother. That is an RCC false doctrine. She was not married to Jesus father. God is the one who adopts us. Not Mary.
 
Because I have a mother and I don't need a pretend mother. I need Jesus and Jesus has never said Mary is my mother. That is an RCC false doctrine. She was not married to Jesus father. God is the one who adopts us. Not Mary.
She doesn't have to be married to God the Father - she is Christ's mum!

Also, what is meant in John's Gospel about giving the "beloved disciple" Mary as his mother?
 
You said he didn't love and trust Jesus, that's pretty harsh.

Okay, so if you believe Jesus was truly human and Mary was the mother of the person Jesus, who had a human nature, how then is she not your mother in any way if you are his sister?
I didn't say he didn't love and trust I said if he trusted. The truth is harsh. I have no idea where he is now nor do you.
She doesn't have to be married to God the Father - she is Christ's mum!

Also, what is meant in John's Gospel about giving the "beloved disciple" Mary as his mother?
I don't care, God is the one who adopts us, not Mary. That verse does not make her my mother. I am not interested in replacing Jesus with Mary. I want Jesus to be on my mind and in my thoughts on my death bed or when I am in trouble. How come none of the apostle called Mary mother either when she was alive or dead?
 
I didn't say he didn't love and trust I said if he trusted. The truth is harsh. I have no idea where he is now nor do you.
You said:

"If he did love and trust Jesus, he would have had the courage to do the right thing."

Since you don't think he did the "right thing", you are basically saying he didn't love and trust Jesus.
I don't care, God is the one who adopts us, not Mary. That verse does not make her my mother. I am not interested in replacing Jesus with Mary. I want Jesus to be on my mind and in my thoughts on my death bed or when I am in trouble. How come none of the apostle called Mary mother either when she was alive or dead?
Okay, but that is a difference between the traditional Christian Church (Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic) and the individualistic modern Church (many Protestants), that Mary is devalued and the "family of God" is not treated seriously.
 
You said:

"If he did love and trust Jesus, he would have had the courage to do the right thing."

Since you don't think he did the "right thing", you are basically saying he didn't love and trust Jesus.

Okay, but that is a difference between the traditional Christian Church (Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic) and the individualistic modern Church (many Protestants), that Mary is devalued and the "family of God" is not treated seriously.
He didn't do the right thing, no matter what the circumstances. How many popes ignored the evil that marcial marciel did? Why was he allowed to flourish? How many children could have been saved from his evil clutches, if the popes didn't ignore his evil? Pope John Paul 11 blessed him.

You think ignoring child abusers is the right thing. Good to know.

I don't devalue Mary, she was an amazing person to obey God and take on the burden of being Jesus' mother. But she is not my mother.
 
Maybe it was that response to maternal protection when someone is in mortal danger. What about his evident love and trust in Jesus all his life?
He had a special devotion to Mary--didn't he? But if he was so devoted to Jesus, then why was his first instinct to ask MARY to save him? Why should he even HAVE any such instinct to call on Mary in the first place,? Wasn't Jesus good enough to call upon for help?
 
He had a special devotion to Mary--didn't he? But if he was so devoted to Jesus, then why was his first instinct to ask MARY to save him? Why should he even HAVE any such instinct to call on Mary in the first place,? Wasn't Jesus good enough to call upon for help?
I think you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. The Church is a family and we support one another. Would you disdain a child calling on her mother for help as not trusting in her father? People have special devotions and they can be legitimate.

We see this even in our relationship to God. I mean, if I was in John Paul II's place and called on Jesus to save me, would I have been remiss for not calling on the Father or the Holy Spirit too?
 
I think you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. The Church is a family and we support one another. Would you disdain a child calling on her mother for help as not trusting in her father? People have special devotions and they can be legitimate.

We see this even in our relationship to God. I mean, if I was in John Paul II's place and called on Jesus to save me, would I have been remiss for not calling on the Father or the Holy Spirit too?
Oh rubbish. Mary is not the one who saves. She is Jesus' mother but not our mother. You are the one approaching this from the wrong perspective, the goddess perspective. Answer this question which apostle prayed to Mary after she died? Then you might have a foundation to stand on but you don't. Your reliance on Mary is building a house on quick sand. It is not legitimate.
 
Oh rubbish. Mary is not the one who saves. She is Jesus' mother but not our mother. You are the one approaching this from the wrong perspective, the goddess perspective. Answer this question which apostle prayed to Mary after she died? Then you might have a foundation to stand on but you don't. Your reliance on Mary is building a house on quick sand. It is not legitimate.
We believe in the intercession of the saints.

Can you quote to me any apostle who prayed to the Holy Spirit?
 
We believe in the intercession of the saints.

Can you quote to me any apostle who prayed to the Holy Spirit?
So the answer is no, the apostles did not pray to Mary. Scripture says to pray in the spirit. No where does it say to pray in Mary.

Roms 8:26

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Jude 1:20


But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

John 4;24
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

So many verses about the Spirit and pray. Not one about Mary. I think we can believe Paul and others say to pray in the Spirit, they did it. I am sure they were doers of the word. (James 1:22)

But no prayers to dead Mary or any other dead person. No prayer in Mary either. No nothing about Mary.

Throughout scripture we are told it is God who takes away our sickness and problems. Yep you got it no mention of Mary.

Deut 7:15

And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

Psalm 34:19

Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all.

Heb 4:16

Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

So many verses and yes you are right not one mention of praying to Mary.
 
I think you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. The Church is a family and we support one another. Would you disdain a child calling on her mother for help as not trusting in her father? People have special devotions and they can be legitimate.

We see this even in our relationship to God. I mean, if I was in John Paul II's place and called on Jesus to save me, would I have been remiss for not calling on the Father or the Holy Spirit too?
My perspective is just fine...But if one is in mortal danger, who answers our pleas for help? A mere human, or God? Doesn't God tell us to call upon HIM when we are in trouble? And JPII's first instinct was to call on a human being for help, instead of God Almighty. That show us where his priorities lay.
 
So the answer is no, the apostles did not pray to Mary. Scripture says to pray in the spirit. No where does it say to pray in Mary.

Roms 8:26

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Jude 1:20


But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

John 4;24
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Thanks, nice verses.
 
My perspective is just fine...But if one is in mortal danger, who answers our pleas for help? A mere human, or God? Doesn't God tell us to call upon HIM when we are in trouble? And JPII's first instinct was to call on a human being for help, instead of God Almighty. That show us where his priorities lay.
If you don't see it as Catholics see it, it's difficult to explain. Again, it's kind of like as a child calling out to your mother, it doesn't mean you disdain your father or other members of your family. Sometimes you might have a special connection with someone in the family.
 
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