The foundation of all salvation.

Sethproton said:
I wonder how do you break thru to someone so that they will accept John 20:31 for what it states: "that by believing you may have life"
It reminds me how we all get stuck on our doctrines to the point where we deny what is right in front of us in scripture

I appreciate all the scripture you offer here
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One has to be willing to receive the truth

It is rather incredible Calvinism teaches one must have life to believe but John teaches you must believe to have life

Just the opposite
 
Kampioen said:
Silence means there's no proof one way or the other. Unless you have it. Which apparently you don't.

But if there's no Scriptural proof of either libertarianism or unconditional meticulous predetermination, then it is not unscriptural to default to believing what we naturally would believe, which is libertarianism.



Get over it. You don't need to be high maintenance. Libertarians don't spell perfect like you do.
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Actually the bible denies divine meticulous determination of all things as it shows God is not the cause of all of man's sin

James 1:13–17 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV 1900)
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
 
Manfred said:
Yes, I know you think your faith rest in your own power and not in the power of God as scripture teaches.
That is why your teachings are powerless, except for the false spirit behind them.

At least you have the courage to acknowledge your faith comes from self.
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Romans 10:17 (ESV)
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Seems God created man with an ability for faith

What is needed then is revelation through the word

The idea God efficaciously installs faith in man is not biblical
 
Sethproton said:
I wonder how do you break thru to someone so that they will accept John 20:31 for what it states: "that by believing you may have life"
It reminds me how we all get stuck on our doctrines to the point where we deny what is right in front of us in scripture

I appreciate all the scripture you offer here
Click to expand...
I wonder how do you break thru to someone so that they will accept 1 Tim 2:5 for what it states:

The man Christ Jesus
 
Carbon said:
I didn’t miss anything Seth. Why are you so resistant to truth?
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Yeah you did a lot of scripture

Faith always precedes life in scripture and not as Calvinism reverses it

life before faith which appears no where in scripture
 
Sethproton said:
I wonder how do you break thru to someone so that they will accept John 20:31 for what it states: "that by believing you may have life"
Click to expand...

Exactly who do you think DOESN'T believe John 20:31?!

What you don't seem to understand is that just because someone doesn't accept your personal MISINTERPRETATION of a verse, doesn't mean that they don't accept the verse.

I wonder how do you break thru [sic] to someone so that they will accept John 20:13 for what it states, not what they CHANGE it to mean:
"that by believing you may be regenerated".
 
Theo1689 said:
What do you see in John 20:31 that you falsely think Calvinists don't accept?
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John 20:31 "But these have been written so that...believing you may have lfe in His name."
As a Calvinist, you disagree with this. For you life comes first and then is followed by believing. But John puts them in the other order, by believing you may have life.
 
Theo1689 said:
Exactly who do you think DOESN'T believe John 20:31?!

What you don't seem to understand is that just because someone doesn't accept your personal MISINTERPRETATION of a verse, doesn't mean that they don't accept the verse.

I wonder how do you break thru [sic] to someone so that they will accept John 20:13 for what it states, not what they CHANGE it to mean:
"that by believing you may be regenerated".
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Life

Calvinism teaches life precedes faith

John says the opposite

We don't even have to get to regeneration

but regeneration imparts a life that is eternal

Col 2:12, 13 shows the opposite and Calvinists believe regeneration is referred to

Eph 2:5-8 shows the opposite and once again Calvinists believe regeneration is referred to
 
Sethproton said:
John 20:31 "But these have been written so that...believing you may have lfe in His name."
As a Calvinist, you disagree with this.
Click to expand...

No, I don't.
NO Calvinist disagrees with this.

But you have no valid argument against Calvinism, so you have to MISREPRESENT what we believe. You clearly don't care about truth at all.

Sethproton said:
For you life comes first and then is followed by believing.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong.
I have NEVER claimed that "life comes before believing".
I have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS believed that life comes AFTER believing:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever (1) believes in him should not perish but (2) have eternal life.

I'd ask you why you feel the need to constantly misrepresent me, but we all know why... It's the only way you can hope to attack Calvinism, since you have no way of attacking what we ACTUALLY believe. You clearly do not value truth.

Sethproton said:
But John puts them in the other order, by believing you may have life.
Click to expand...

We believe the SAME order that John put them in.
 
Theo1689 said:
What do you see in John 20:31 that you falsely think Calvinists don't accept?
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Faith precedes life

Calvinism teaches one must first be made alive before they can believe

John says you must believe before you can have life
 
Theo1689 said:
No, I don't.
NO Calvinist disagrees with this.

But you have no valid argument against Calvinism, so you have to MISREPRESENT what we believe. You clearly don't care about truth at all.



Wrong, wrong, wrong.
I have NEVER claimed that "life comes before believing".
I have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS believed that life comes AFTER believing:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever (1) believes in him should not perish but (2) have eternal life.

I'd ask you why you feel the need to constantly misrepresent me, but we all know why... It's the only way you can hope to attack Calvinism, since you have no way of attacking what we ACTUALLY believe. You clearly do not value truth.



We believe the SAME order that John put them in.
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Not so

Calvinism teaches man is dead He can not believe and must have life imparted before he can believe
 
TomFL said:
One is not regenerated until one believes

John 20:31 (ESV)
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 1:12 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Colossians 2:12-13 (ESV)
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Ephesians 2:5-8 (ESV)
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

1 Corinthians 4:15 (ESV)
15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
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I know you don’t agree Tom. All those verses you presented don’t help your case.
 
Sethproton said:
I wonder how do you break thru to someone so that they will accept John 20:31 for what it states: "that by believing you may have life"
It reminds me how we all get stuck on our doctrines to the point where we deny what is right in front of us in scripture

I appreciate all the scripture you offer here
Click to expand...
Well what’s it all about Seth? Believing, isn’t it?
But you ignore doctrine. You have a bad habit of taking verses and taking them apart to use as a proof text.
I hope some day you will see scripture interprets scripture, and you can’t break it up into pieces to use as you like.
 
Carbon said:
Well what’s it all about Seth? Believing, isn’t it?
But you ignore doctrine. You have a bad habit of taking verses and taking them apart to use as a proof text.
I hope some day you will see scripture interprets scripture, and you can’t break it up into pieces to use as you like.
Click to expand...
Yes it’s like looking at a 1000 piece puzzle that has pieces scattered all over the place. His theology is a mess .
 
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