Mormon "Justification of life"

[Theo1689]

That same argument can be made about the theology pawned here--once we accept the testimony of the Savior--we won't feel the need to protect false theologies:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

What do you think Jesus meant by that?
If Jesus says you're not good, what makes you think you can attain salvation by "good' works?

You keep IGNORING that.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Did you know that the passage CONTINUES?:

Matt. 19:20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

I guess he learned that he wasn't "good".

Why do you keep ignoring THAT?

There is another relevant passage:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Law was NEVER intended to give us eternal life, it was meant to convict us of our sin, and lead us to our Saviour (Gal. 3:24-25).

Why do you keep ignoring THAT?!

 

[Magdalena]

You can say that until you're blue in the face, but the evidence doesn't support your claim. What's important is what you do and what you do shows us what's in your heart.

Christ knows what’s in my heart. I don’t care what you think. You’re not my judge.

 

[Janice Bower]

It's all about what God has done and what He is doing
Yep and what he said was "by their fruits ye shall know them". So much for Deuteronomy. Fruit = works and by their works you can tell if a person believes what he's telling you is true (you don't know it's true, just that he believes it's true). Do you see how that works? Do you see it's all about what you do.

It's all about what God has done and is doing! Hallelujah!

 

[Bonnie]

What do you think Jesus meant by that?
If Jesus says you're not good, what makes you think you can attain salvation by "good' works?

You keep IGNORING that.



Did you know that the passage CONTINUES?:

Matt. 19:20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

I guess he learned that he wasn't "good".

Why do you keep ignoring THAT?

There is another relevant passage:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Law was NEVER intended to give us eternal life, it was meant to convict us of our sin, and lead us to our Saviour (Gal. 3:24-25).

Why do you keep ignoring THAT?!

I wonder if any Mormon has done what Jesus commanded this young man to do--sell all he has and give it to the poor....?

But I also dealt with this passage several times, over the past 3 board incarnations. I wrote this about it November 2020:

Jesus knows we cannot keep the commandments on our own. He was showing the young man that he had not kept the commandments as well as he thought. Choosing his wealth over following Jesus PROVED that he had NOT kept them at all, breaking the first and greatest commandment.

If we were capable of keeping God's commandments on our own, He would not have needed to suffer and die for us. And James says if we keep all of God's law, but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it. Putting us back at square one.

Mormons are so conditioned and indoctrinated to believe they must make themselves worthy of full salvation by THEIR own efforts, that they cannot conceive of true salvation being the GIFT OF GOD simply because He loves us. It is anathema to them. I feel sorry for them, really...

It is probably still on these boards, but I don't know where it is now.

I did archive this with a link, but also saved what I wrote, starting first with what Paul wrote:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them. (Gal. 3)

Then I chimed in:

So, anyone who tries to be justified by keeping the Law is under a curse to keep it PERFECTLY. IF we do NOT, we become Lawbreakers--don't we, Mesenja? What did James say? "If we keep the whole law but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it."

So, even breaking ONE law means we have broken ALL OF THEM. They are intertwined, interconnected. Break one, we break then ALL! SO...what was Jesus trying to show the young man? DID the young mean REALLY keep all of the commandments since childhood? IF that had been true, he would have NOT felt that something was lacking, would he? Because he would be righteous before God for keeping ALL of the commandments.

But he didn't, did he? Jesus knew the state of his heart--so that is why He told the young man "You lack one thing--sell all that you have, give it to the poor, and follow Me."

We know what happened, don't we? The young man went sadly away, for he was rich--he put his riches over following Jesus, which proved just how short he really was in keeping the commandments--he broke the first and most important one and had made money his god.

We know what happened, don't we? The young man went sadly away, for he was rich--he put his riches over following Jesus, which proved just how short he really was in keeping the commandments--he broke the first and most important one and had made money his god.

I think Jesus was showing the young man just how far short of perfection he really had been. Had he done what Jesus asked, he would have been saved--but he rejected Jesus in favor of his wealth.

Jesus knows we cannot keep the commandments perfectly. That is why HE had to come and suffer and die on the cross, and rise again from the dead. HE kept the commandments PERFECTLY in our stead. And THAT perfection--righteousness--is credited to us BY FAITH in Him--HIS righteousness is then transferred to US as our own! What an exchange! On the cross, Jesus exchanged HIS righteous, perfect keeping of the Law, for OUR lawlessness, for OUR sins! What a Savior!

Two ways to be saved to heaven, Mesenja:

1. Keep all of God's commandments perfectly, never once stumbling, from birth to death...

OR

2. Trust and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior, and have HIS perfect keeping of the commandments transferred to us by grace through faith in HIM....Which do you think is more sure?
Covenantbreakers | Page 4 | CARM Forums

So, Mormons, which IS a more sure way to keep the commandments? Have Jesus' perfect keeping of them transferred to us by grace through faith in HIM, so His righteousness is credited to us as our own, OR attempt to keep all of the commandments perfectly, in thought, word, and deed? Which would be better to rely on?

I don't think I got an answer to this question, unless I missed it.

But this is also proof that I dealt with these Matthew 19 verses on here, several times. I did so on the previous 2 boards, as well.

 

[Mesenja]

​

Yep and what he said was "by their fruits ye shall know them". So much for Deuteronomy. Fruit = works and by their works you can tell if a person believes what he's telling you is true (you don't know it's true, just that he believes it's true). Do you see how that works? Do you see it's all about what a person does?​

John 15:1-3

I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. 2 He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit. 3 You are clean already because of the word that I have spoken to you.​

 

[Mesenja]

So, Mormons, which IS a more sure way to keep the commandments? Have Jesus' perfect keeping of them transferred to us by grace through faith in HIM, so His righteousness is credited to us as our own, OR attempt to keep all of the commandments perfectly, in thought, word, and deed? Which would be better to rely on?​

First of all the doctrine of imputed righteousness is false doctrine. The second point I would like to bring up is that we don’t try to keep the commandments perfectly in thought word or deed in order to earn our salvation. That’s not the point of good works.​

 

[Janice Bower]

I wonder if any Mormon has done what Jesus commanded this young man to do--sell all he has and give it to the poor....?

But I also dealt with this passage several times, over the past 3 board incarnations. I wrote this about it November 2020:



It is probably still on these boards, but I don't know where it is now.

I did archive this with a link, but also saved what I wrote, starting first with what Paul wrote:



Then I chimed in:



So, Mormons, which IS a more sure way to keep the commandments? Have Jesus' perfect keeping of them transferred to us by grace through faith in HIM, so His righteousness is credited to us as our own, OR attempt to keep all of the commandments perfectly, in thought, word, and deed? Which would be better to rely on?

I don't think I got an answer to this question, unless I missed it.

But this is also proof that I dealt with these Matthew 19 verses on here, several times. I did so on the previous 2 boards, as well.

Most of the bishops I knew were quite well paid. I don't remember the first one. We moved to another state about two months later.

 

[Janice Bower]

First of all the doctrine of imputed righteousness is false doctrine. The second point I would like to bring up is that we don’t try to keep the commandments perfectly in thought word or deed in order to earn our salvation. That’s not the point of good works.​

Are you suggesting that the sheep are deceived by the craftiness of men and not following God nor doing God's will? Why do you think that?

 

[Mesenja]

What do you think Jesus meant by that? If Jesus says you're not good, what makes you think you can attain salvation by "good' works?You keep IGNORING that.​

Why do you keep ignoring that the purpose of doing good words was never to earn our salvation?​

Did you know that the passage CONTINUES?
Matthew 19:20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

I guess he learned that he wasn't "good". Why do you keep ignoring THAT?
​

It’s my guess that dberrie2020 learned that the reason the rich young man went away sorrowful was that he wasn’t willing to deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Christ.​

There is another relevant passage:

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Law was NEVER intended to give us eternal life, it was meant to convict us of our sin, and lead us to our Saviour (Galatians 3:24-25).

Why do you keep ignoring THAT?!
​

When Paul was referring to works of the law in Galatians and Romans he was referring to works of the Torah.​

 

[Mesenja]

Are you suggesting that the sheep are deceived by the craftiness of men and not following God nor doing God's will? Why do you think that?​

What I’m clearly stating not suggesting is that God doesn’t impute his righteousness to us.​

 

[Bonnie]

First of all the doctrine of imputed righteousness is false doctrine.​

No, it isn't. Jesus' righteousness becomes ours by grace through faith in Him. We cannot earn it. It is a gift. It is late and I will go into more detail tomorrow.

Okay, I am back. Romans 4 talks about this very thing:

For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

These verses are all about imputed righteousness. By faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, we are made righteous in God's eyes, for Christ's righteousness is credited to us by our faith in Him.

Here is some more, from Romans 3:

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

From Phil. 3:9:

...and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

These verses are all about imputed righteousness. And Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us, NOT by any works on our part, but by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The second point I would like to bring up is that we don’t try to keep the commandments perfectly in thought word or deed in order to earn our salvation. That’s not the point of good works.​

I beg to differ, but in Mormonism, grace only kicks in after Mormons put forth their best effort to obey all sorts of laws--after all they can DO. But I agree that that is not the purpose of good works. Can you tell me what is the purpose of doing good works?

 

[Mesenja]

No, it isn't. Jesus' righteousness becomes ours by grace through faith in Him. We cannot earn it. It is a gift. It is late and I will go into more detail tomorrow.​

logizomai (Strong’s 3049 GK: G3357)
(1) pr. to count, calculate; to count, enumerate, Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37;to set down as a matter of account, 1 Corinthians 13:5; 2 Corinthians 3:5; 12:6; to impute, Romans 4:3; 2 Corinthians 5:19;2 Timothy 4:16;to account, Romans 2:26;8:36; εἰς οὐδὲν λογισθῆναι, to be set at nought, despised,Acts 19:27;to regard,deem,consider,Romans 6:11;14:14; 1 Corinthians 4:1;2 Corinthians 10:2; Philippians 3:13; (2) to infer,conclude,presume, Romans 2:3; 3:28;8:18;2 Corinthians 10:2,7,11;Hebrews 11:19;1 Peter 5:12; (3) to think upon,ponder,Philippians 4:8;absol. to reason,Mark 11:31;1 Corinthians 13:11

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted (logizomai) unto him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted (logizomai) to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed (logizomai) to him for righteousness.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,neither known him. 7 Little children,let no man deceive you:HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS,EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;for his seed remaineth in him:and he cannot sin,because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest,and the children of the devil:whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,neither he that loveth not his brother.
​

I beg to differ, but in Mormonism, grace only kicks in after Mormons put forth their best effort to obey all sorts of laws--after all they can DO. But I agree that that is not the purpose of good works. Can you tell me what is the purpose of doing good works?

2 Nephi 2:8 no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits … of the Holy Messiah
Moroni 6:4 (Doctrine & Covenants 3:20) relying alone upon the merits of Christ
alone (adverb) indicating that something is confined to the specified subject or recipient.

John 15:1-3 I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. 2 He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit. 3 You are clean already because of the word that I have spoken to you.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
1 Peter 1:17
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

​

His Grace Is Sufficient BRAD WILCOX​

But the older I get, and the more I understand this wonderful plan of redemption,the more I realize that in the final judgment it will not be the unrepentant sinner begging Jesus,“Let me stay.” No,he will probably be saying,“Get me out of here!” Knowing Christ’s character,I believe that if anyone is going to be begging on that occasion,it would probably be Jesus begging the unrepentant sinner,“Please, choose to stay. Please,use my Atonement—not just to be cleansed but to be changed so that you want to stay.” The miracle of the Atonement is not just that we can go home but that—miraculously—we can feel at home there. If Christ did not require faith and repentance,then there would be no desire to change. Think of your friends and family members who have chosen to live without faith and without repentance. They don’t want to change. They are not trying to abandon sin and become comfortable with God. Rather,they are trying to abandon God and become comfortable with sin. If Jesus did not require covenants and bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost,then there would be no way to change. We would be left forever with only willpower,with no access to His power. If Jesus did not require endurance to the end, then there would be no internalization of those changes over time. ​

 

[Bonnie]

Yes

What I’m clearly stating not suggesting is that God doesn’t impute his righteousness to us.​

Yes, He does, by grace through faith in Him and His Son.

 

[Bonnie]

John 15:1-3

I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. 2 He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit. 3 You are clean already because of the word that I have spoken to you.​

But BY WHAT can we bear good fruit? WHOM must we be attached to in order to produce good fruit?

 

[Mesenja]

ogizomai (Strong’s 3049 GK: G3357)
(1) pr. to count, calculate; to count, enumerate, Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37;to set down as a matter of account, 1 Corinthians 13:5; 2 Corinthians 3:5; 12:6; to impute, Romans 4:3; 2 Corinthians 5:19;2 Timothy 4:16;to account, Romans 2:26;8:36; εἰς οὐδὲν λογισθῆναι, to be set at nought, despised,Acts 19:27;to regard,deem,consider,Romans 6:11;14:14; 1 Corinthians 4:1;2 Corinthians 10:2; Philippians 3:13; (2) to infer,conclude,presume, Romans 2:3; 3:28;8:18;2 Corinthians 10:2,7,11;Hebrews 11:19;1 Peter 5:12; (3) to think upon,ponder,Philippians 4:8;absol. to reason,Mark 11:31;1 Corinthians 13:11


Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work,but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,his faith is credited (logizomai) unto him as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits (logizomai) unto him righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.logizomai)”​

 

[Mesenja]

But BY WHAT can we bear good fruit? WHOM must we be attached to in order to produce good fruit?​

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself;it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine;you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you,you will bear much fruit;apart from me you can do nothing.​

 

[Mesenja]

Yes, He does, by grace through faith in Him and His Son.​

The word “imputed” comes from the Greek word “logizomai” (Strong’s 3049) which could be translated as “reckon,count,charge with;reason,decide,conclude;think or suppose”. Notice that it doesn’t mean “transfer”,but rather “reckoned” or “counted as”. The IMPUTED righteousness of CHRIST – is not Biblical Bjorkbloggen​

​

 

[Bonnie]

The word “imputed” comes from the Greek word “logizomai” (Strong’s 3049) which could be translated as “reckon,count,charge with;reason,decide,conclude;think or suppose”. Notice that it doesn’t mean “transfer”,but rather “reckoned” or “counted as”. The IMPUTED righteousness of CHRIST – is not Biblical Bjorkbloggen​

​

Sorry, but yes it is Biblical. You are arguing a distinction without any difference. Transfer just means to move from one place to another. But I am more than happy to keep saying Jesus' righteousness is imputed/ credited to us by faith in him. You stated imputed righteousness is not Biblical, yet, now you seem to be saying it is--which is it?

Jesus' righteousness is credited/counted to us by faith in Him--just as Abe's faith in God and His promises was credited to him as righteousness. Which I proved from Romans. We have no righteousness of our own to boast about.

 

[Mesenja]

Sorry, but yes it is Biblical. You are arguing a distinction without any difference. Jesus' righteousness is credited/counted to us by faith in Him--just as Abe's faith in God and His promises was credited to him as righteousness. Which I proved from Romans. We have no righteousness of our own to boast about.​

Ezekiel 18:20
20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity,nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity;the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself,and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

According to the Bible neither sin nor righteousness are transferrable. And I’m not making a distinction without a difference. It is markedly different to say Christ’s righteousness is transferred to us which is legal fiction nowhere found in the Bible and to say God imputes or “counted as” righteousness the FORGIVEN man.

Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”


And why will the Lord not impute sin? Because the man to whom God imputes righteousness has been forgiven and his sins are covered. HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS,EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. 1 John 4:7

​

 

[Mesenja]

“The eyes of the Lord are everywhere,keeping watch on the wicked and the good” Proverbs 15:3
He sees what is behind and what is ahead,all the threats,all the dangers. “God will bring every work into judgment,including every secret thing, whether it is good or whether it is evil” Ecclesiastes 12:13-14​