according to the saints, very very few make it to Heaven

[SteveB]

unless Christ gave us that institution

I've never once been able to see an institution in the bible.
I see that the church is the bride of Jesus.
The bride of Jesus is made up of people who believe in Jesus. Individual humans made in the likeness and image of YHVH, and then made alive by Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God's Word.

same answer as above

The Mass is beautiful!

I'm sure you do.
I find it ritualistic and empty.

They received Christ [body, blood, soul, and divinity]

Transubstantiation?

If you found out that the Eucharist is real, you might change that answer

You talk like I haven't been doing the Lord's supper for the past 44+ years.

I just don't believe that it's transubstantiation.

no, a personal fallible interpretation is dangerous .... what is a train without tracks?, a river without banks?

You sound like the Holy Spirit isn't capable of ensuring that the followers of Jesus actually understand what the bible teaches.

That family member should remember this: imperfect communion

Christ's first miracle comes to mind

Think about your journey this way.... have you changed your mind throughout the 44 plus years of reading the bible?

I change my mind everytime I read in the bible that I'm not doing it the way Jesus said matters.
That's what repentance is. Metanoia.

The question remains... how do we know when we actually have the truth?

Jesus said in John 18

Joh 18:37-38 WEB 37 Pilate therefore said to him, “Are you a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this reason I have been born, and for this reason I have come into the world, that I should testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” When he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no basis for a charge against him.

In John 17, Jesus said,

Joh 17:17 WEB Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth.

He then said in John 8,

Joh 8:30-32 WEB 30 As he spoke these things, many believed in him. 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

You will know the truth when you are listening to, and continuing to learn the truth.

We're all in the same exact boat.

not if you were an early Christian in AD 42

Since you weren't there, you don't actually know.

I'm curious about one thing.... do you know that the only bible which existed then was what we now call the old testament? Genesis through Malachi.

 

[rod.ney]

More reason to believe in a hierarchical church.

Following a man [Luther] is dangerous.

It was more a revolt to Christ's Catholic Church.... personal interpretations got in the way.

The killings of Catholics in England, Ireland etc. should be included in your remarks.... Calvin as well

Christ gave us that Church... it is up to us to be obedient

As a Catholic, I can buy as many Bibles as I want to--and read them.

You can't get any closer than the Eucharist.

Your personal, fallible interpretation has given you this ^^

Those that separate themselves from Christ's Catholic Church.

That is where you have failed... open your heart/mind to what God says and not your personal demands.

God will not help your unbelief without your willingness to learn.

Blessings!

FYI, Christ's Catholic ( Universal ) Church is NOT the ROMAN one ( Roman Catholic Church )! The Church of Philadelphia in the BOR is NOT Roman Catholic and it's the best type of Church ( goes by the AS IS scriptures in our Bibles that are Translated Correctly and never contradicts them with their Opinions ) to be in today!

 

[Arch Stanton]

I've never once been able to see an institution in the bible.

Not even once?

1 Tim 3 tells us the church is the pillar and foundation of [the] truth
Mt 16 gives Peter the keys to the kingdom
Mt 18 tells us to go to the church if there is a dispute
Eph 3 tells us that the wisdom of God is made known through the church
James 5 tells us that the presbyters of the church will anoint with oil if you are sick
John 20 tells us that your sins are forgiven/retained
Heb 13 tells us to obey and submit to the rulers over us [spiritually]
Luke 10 'whoever listens to you listens to me...'

I see that the church is the bride of Jesus.

Indeed

The bride of Jesus is made up of people who believe in Jesus.

Yes, and believe goes with 'obey'

I find it ritualistic and empty.

Even if you found out that the angels in Heaven are partaking in the Mass?

Transubstantiation?

The Real Presence of Our Lord....body, blood, soul, and divinity

You talk like I haven't been doing the Lord's supper for the past 44+ years.

If you are not Catholic or Orthodox, you haven't

You sound like the Holy Spirit isn't capable of ensuring that the followers of Jesus actually understand what the bible teaches.

back to my point earlier in the discussion ?

Are our personal, fallible, interpretations of scripture any better than the Catholic Church?

I change my mind every time I read in the bible that I'm not doing it the way Jesus said matters.

So does that mean for the last 44+ years, the HS has opened your heart to ideas that you dismissed earlier?

Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

Since you weren't there, you don't actually know.

My point about AD 42 is that we wouldn't have the Bible to rely on... the early Christians had The Church.

I'm curious about one thing.... do you know that the only bible which existed then was what we now call the old testament? Genesis through Malachi.

Yes indeed! That is my point above.

 

[Arch Stanton]

FYI, Christ's Catholic ( Universal ) Church is NOT the ROMAN one ( Roman Catholic Church )!

History disagrees with you

 

[rod.ney]

History disagrees with you

History agrees with me because none of the 7 churches in Rev. Chapters 2 & 3 were Roman Catholic! And Peter was a fellow elder with a wife and NOT the First Pope as per 1 Peter 5:1 ---------------------

1 Peter 5:1
New International Version
​

To the Elders and the Flock​

5 To the elders among you, I ( Peter ) appeal as a fellow elder ( Not Pope or vicar of Christ ) and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed:

 

[Arch Stanton]

1 Peter 5:1

To the Elders and the Flock​

5 To the elders among you, I ( Peter ) appeal as a fellow elder ( Not Pope or vicar of Christ ) and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed:

Lk 22:24-27 Then an argument broke out among them about which of them should be regarded as the greatest. He [Christ] said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as ‘Benefactors’; but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. For who is greater: the one seated at table or the one who serves? Is it not the one seated at table? I am among you as the one who serves.

 

[e v e 21]

This is what the canonized saints say, that hardly anyone gets into Heaven

there is St Bernard
St Augustine
St Bellarmine

St Jerome

and others..

And they were all Catholic, so there's that...

How do they know?

Well, St Bernard and St Leonard of Port Maurice... interesting stories there...

jerome - platonist
augustine - platonist
bellarmine - platonist
bernard - platonist

 

[rod.ney]

Lk 22:24-27 Then an argument broke out among them about which of them should be regarded as the greatest. He [Christ] said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as ‘Benefactors’; but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. For who is greater: the one seated at table or the one who serves? Is it not the one seated at table? I am among you as the one who serves.

And that in no way disagrees with what I correctly posted ( Peter was not a Pope and he was also rebuked to his face in one instance in scripture -- ( Gal.2:11 ) -------------------
rod.ney said:
1 Peter 5:1

To the Elders and the Flock​

5 To the elders among you, I ( Peter ) appeal as a fellow elder ( Not Pope or vicar of Christ ) and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
-------------------------

Galatians 2:11
New International Version
​

Paul Opposes Cephas ( Peter )​

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

 

[Arch Stanton]

And that in no way disagrees with what I correctly posted

and your post in NO WAY takes away from Peter's authority, given by Christ.

 

[e v e 21]

My point about AD 42 is that we wouldn't have the Bible to rely on... the early Christians had The Church.

early christians had christ to rely on
…and put all their trust in Him.

 

[Arch Stanton]

early christians had christ to rely on
…and put all their trust in Him.

AD 42... Christ was back in Heaven, His Apostles were preaching the Good News.

 

[e v e 21]

AD 42... Christ was back in Heaven, His Apostles were preaching the Good News.

Christ is with each soul
and He helps us.

He was with each of the apostles too.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Christ is with each soul
and He helps us.

and He gave us a hierarchical Church

He was with each of the apostles too.

and they laid hands on the future generation of Catholics

 

[rod.ney]

and your post in NO WAY takes away from Peter's authority, given by Christ.

And that authority given by Christ was NOT making him ( Peter ) the Roman Catholic's first Pope! Case Closed, as he said he was a Fellow elder ( not Pope or Vicar of Christ ) and that is why Paul was able to rebuke him ( Peter ) in that verse I posted, and it is also why Peter could have a wife!

 

[e v e 21]

i understand @Arch Stanton …like me you were trained to esau’s corrupted version.

 

[Arch Stanton]

And that authority given by Christ was NOT making him ( Peter ) the Roman Catholic's first Pope!

Christ gave Peter the keys.... no one else -- CASE CLOSED!

 

[Arch Stanton]

i understand @Arch Stanton …like me you were trained to esau’s corrupted version.

I do not follow a corrupted version... I follow Christ and His only Church.

 

[e v e 21]

I do not follow a corrupted version... I follow Christ and His only Church.

the church is us, His sons and daughters

 

[Arch Stanton]

the church is us, His sons and daughters

and since you taught about the ECF's, did you see a physical church with leaders -- through the 'laying on of hands'?

 

[e v e 21]

when i taught at catholic university,
i attended a dinner. at the dinner the head of the school… a priest,
and ‘friend of the pope‘ stated that the university
was ‘augustinian‘ to its core. note… he did not say ’christian’.

augustine was a platonist, gluing Greek pagan theology onto every line of scripture.

I observed the same constant mixing of plato into christianity at the school
over many years.

since i explained this problem to my students, I do have many citations from priests (in history) explaining all this, and agreeing with me on it. though they view it as positive and I do not.

How do you view that mixing?