Debate: Trent Horn vs Steve Christie (Marian dogmas)

[4Him]

The Bible also warns not to judge.

Quite the opposite....

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

 

[pilgrim]

Quite the opposite....

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

 

[organgrinder]

Do Protestants ever claim that they venerate God? Not that I have seen.

You are a sad case, pilgrim. Incredible you would even make such a statement. Do you know what venerate means?

 

[balshan]

Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Everyone will be judged by God. But we are to judge, discern and test. Discern and test are other forms of judgement. That is scriptural. Those who bring up do not judge just want to hide the truth. RCs ignore the fact that we are to judge things and actions. We are not to judge where people will go after death, that is for God alone.


I notice RCs ignore these verses.

1 Cor 2:15

The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Heb 5:14

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil

How RCs honour Mary is to be judge/discerned/tested to distinguish if it is good or evil. And those of us who are on solid food have made the call it is worship and is not apostolic at all. If we failed to warn RCs about this major error in what they are being taught then we would be in the wrong.

 

[mica]

Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

what's the context? timeline?

 

[Bonnie]

No you aren't. Really: who are you to tell me anything about Catholicism? Are you a bishop? A pope? Someone with a formal commission to teach?

I know Biblical teachings better than your popes and bishops, and would never teach error as they do and have done.

I am a blood washed, born again child of God, by grace through faith in His One and Only Son, indwelt with the HS of truth. That is who I am. Any good responses I give come strictly from the indwelling HS. I give Him all the glory and credit.

Yeah---you know that isn't what I meant. You know full well that when Catholics assert that the pope is the spiritual head of the Church, they are not asserting "instead of Christ." Of course Christ is head of the Church.

But Boniface said what he said. And didn't you still say Boniface was asserting that he was the spiritual head of the church--not the emperor? By his Bull? Seems HE didn't know Jesus is the real spiritual Head of the church--did he?

Justification means that we are placed in right relationship with God. Salvation is the end result of that: heaven.

Justification means we are declared "not guilty" of our sins, before God, because Jesus paid for them on the cross. Fully.

Good works cannot justify one--at least not initially.

Uh-oh...here we go...

Trent is clear that the initial Grace of justification comes from God and God alone. It is totally and completely unmerited. Works come AFTER the Grace of justification is given which is why they can "increase" our justification.

Aaaand, there you have it folks...good works do indeed help to justify us before God. Just as we have said. Which is not Biblical.

In other words---they help to expand our capacity to be bears of God's Grace and love.

They are acts of love done IN salvation, not FOR salvation. It is God's grace alone that enables us to do His work and will and express our faith in love towards one another.

Since intelligent people are able to take things like historical context into account, why would that be necessary?

To prevent confusion? To be clear?

To try and use that Bull--as meaning separated brethren (Protestants) are going to Hell is absurd. There were no Protestants when that Bull was written.

Oooh, so it no longer applies nowadays--is that it? OR does it only apply to Catholics? They are not saved unless they submit to the Pope? Is that it?

The context of the debate is the roles of Church and state. The implications mean the pope, not Joe Biden, runs the Church on earth. Thank heaven too. I can't stand Pope Francis, but I can't stand Biden even more.

Except Boniface wrote what he wrote. He did NOT write that "I am the spiritual head of the church..not YOU, Emperor!" Or did he?

Sooo, you don't like Francis, eh? Tell us, who is supposed to inspire the College of Cardinals--that is the correct term, is it not?-- when they pick a pope?

Correct. Their authority was NOT based on the appearances of Christ. Mary Magdalene saw Christ and yet was not one of the 12. The appearances were for the sake of enabling their calling, but their authority was not based on those appearances.

Never said it was, but they were eye witnesses to Jesus and His ministry, death, and Resurrection. They taught the truth. Jesus did NOT give them authority to teach lies as doctrines, and make a near goddess out of His earthly mother.

I agree that religious leaders loose that authority when they teach contrary to God's Word.

Which means your popes have not had authority for many hundreds of years.

The question is "Who or what mechanism determines when a religious leader is teaching contrary to God's Word?"

The Bible.

For Catholics, that is the Church at large, not Marty Luther or the other reformers.

For Catholics it is THEIR own church, and no other.
"Marty" used the Bible--your popes did not.

It certainly isn't you. That is why when you say "But the RCC teaches unbiblical doctrine" I reply "And who are you to tell us that?"

A born-again, blood-washed child of God, by grace through faith in His One and Only Son, and what He did fir me on the cross, who has graced me with the Holy Spirit and given me discernment as a spiritual gift.

THAT'S who.

Well, then--I won't discuss it and I will give all due deference to the mods.

We could on the Lutheran board. You could go there and show us what Luther taught that was so in error. I and my fellow Lutherans would be happy to answer you.

 

[pilgrim]

I know Biblical teachings better than your popes and bishops, and would never teach error as they do and have done.

I am a blood washed, born again child of God, by grace through faith in His One and Only Son, indwelt with the HS of truth. That is who I am. Any good responses I give come strictly from the indwelling HS. I give Him all the glory and credit.


But Boniface said what he said. And didn't you still say Boniface was asserting that he was the spiritual head of the church--not the emperor? By his Bull? Seems HE didn't know Jesus is the real spiritual Head of the church--did he?


Justification means we are declared "not guilty" of our sins, before God, because Jesus paid for them on the cross. Fully.


Uh-oh...here we go...


Aaaand, there you have it folks...good works do indeed help to justify us before God. Just as we have said. Which is not Biblical.



They are acts of love done IN salvation, not FOR salvation. It is God's grace alone that enables us to do His work and will and express our faith in love towards one another.


To prevent confusion? To be clear?


Oooh, so it no longer applies nowadays--is that it? OR dies it only apply to Catholics? They are not saved unless they submit to the Pope? Is that it?


Except Boniface wrote what he wrote. He did NOT write that "I am the spiritual head of the church..not YOU, Emperor!"


Never said it was, but they were eye witnesses to Jesus and His ministry, death, and Resurrection. They taught the truth. Jesus did NOT give them authority to teach lies as doctrines, and make a near goddess out of His earthly mother.


Which means your popes have not had authority for hundreds of years.


The Bible.

For Catholics it is THEIR own church, and no other.
"Marty" used the Bible--your popes did not.


A born-again, blood-washed child of God, by grace through faith in His One and Only Son, and what He did fir me on the cross, who has graced me with the Holy Spirit and given me discernment as a spiritual gift.

THAT'S who.

We could on the Lutheran board. You could go there and show us what Luther taught that was so in error. I and my fellow Lutherans would be happy to do so.

 

[Bonnie]

Did Luther affirm baptismal regeneration?

Yes, but that is for discussion on the Lutheran board, not here.

 

[Bonnie]

Not true at all. It warns about judging rightly. We are to judge, that is what testing the spirits means. Your institution fails that test. The scriptures use words like discern, test. Judging has many meanings as well it means divide, assess as well as legal meanings.

We cannot judge whether a person will end up after they die, that is only for God. I find that the only people who tell others not to judge are those who want to cover up something. It is used as a means to hide the truth.

1 Cor 2:15

The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Heb 5:14

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil

How RCs honour Mary is to be judge/discerned/tested to distinguish if it is good or evil. And those of us who are on solid food have made the call it is worship and is not apostolic at all. If we failed to warn RCs about this major error in what they are being taught then we would be in the wrong.

Yes, the Bible urges us to judge with RIGHTEOUS judgment.

 

[4Him]

Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

You left out the context, as do most that are biblically ignorant on this subject. This is NOT telling you not to judge, but HOW to judge....by first examining yourself to be able to judge righteously as we are told to.

“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

I know Biblical teachings better than your popes and bishops, and would never teach error as they do and have done.

No, you know LUTHERANISM better than my popes and bishops. You know what LUTHERANISM has taught you about what Catholics believe and teach--and those caricatures are well reflected in your posts.

I am a blood washed, born again child of God, by grace through faith in His One and Only Son, indwelt with the HS of truth. That is who I am. Any good responses I give come strictly from the indwelling HS. I give Him all the glory and credit.

Since Catholics believe they have the exact same indwelling of the Holy Spirit, claiming that you know the truth becasue you have the indwelling of the Spirit isn't helpful.

But Boniface said what he said. And didn't you still say Boniface was asserting that he was the spiritual head of the church--not the emperor? By his Bull? Seems HE didn't know Jesus is the real spiritual Head of the church--did he?

Again, Bonnie, if you take off the Lutheran glasses----and stop reading our documents in order to confirm your Lutheran presuppositions...

Justification means we are declared "not guilty" of our sins, before God, because Jesus paid for them on the cross. Fully.

Fine. But it is also being placed in right relationship/relationship with God.

Aaaand, there you have it folks...good works do indeed help to justify us before God.

They increase our capacity to bear the Grace of God in our hearts, and bring that Grace into the world. But--since you believe justification is a mere declaration whereby God declares us Not-Guilty--I can understand why you would have a difficult time with this concept. One is either guilty or not-guilty. You cannot be any less guilty than not-guilty. Thus, how can works make one any less guilty than not-guilty? It is like trying to go slower than stop.

For Catholics justification is being washed in the blood of Christ through Baptism--by which one is not merely declared "not-guilty," but actually made non-guilty. Because of this, one is in right relationship with God. We are God's child in and through Christ who lives within.

They are acts of love done IN salvation, not FOR salvation.

Fine. I told you I agree with this.

It is God's grace alone that enables us to do His work and will and express our faith in love towards one another.

God's Grace enables the works, yes. Fine.

Oooh, so it no longer applies nowadays--is that it? OR does it only apply to Catholics? They are not saved unless they submit to the Pope? Is that it?

Except Boniface wrote what he wrote. He did NOT write that "I am the spiritual head of the church.. Not YOU, Emperor!" Or did he?

Asked and answered--like what? 10 times now? Do you think the answer is going to change if you keep asking the question?

Sooo, you don't like Francis, eh? Tell us, who is supposed to inspire the College of Cardinals--that is the correct term, is it not?-- when they pick a pope?

Inspired? There is only one thing on this Earth that can claim to be inspired and that is the Bible.

The Church is infallible, not inspired. In other words----the Spirit protects and guides the Church from teaching error. That does not mean every pope that gets elected was chosen by the Holy Spirit. The process by which a pope is selected is marred by sin, politics and human weakness. The Holy Spirit just prevents the process or the pope from going off the rails so to speak and destroying the Church.

Never said it was, but they were eye witnesses to Jesus and His ministry, death, and Resurrection. They taught the truth. Jesus did NOT give them authority to teach lies as doctrines, and make a near goddess out of His earthly mother.

We didn't make a goddess of Mary. That is a Lutheran caricature.

Which means your popes have not had authority for many hundreds of years.

Where are you getting this from?

For Catholics it is THEIR own church, and no other.

Too right you are! The Church either teaches truth or it does not. If the Church is going to be the pillar of truth---she best know what she is talking about.

"Marty" used the Bible--your popes did not.

No, Marty used his opinions on the Bible, then decided--the Church should believe them.

We could on the Lutheran board. You could go there and show us what Luther taught that was so in error. I and my fellow Lutherans would be happy to answer you.

That is for another time.

 

[pilgrim]

You left out the context, as do most that are biblically ignorant on this subject. This is NOT telling you not to judge, but HOW to judge....by first examining yourself to be able to judge righteously as we are told to.

“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

No, they never call us names.

 

[4Him]

No, they never call us names.

When you display biblical ignorance for all to see it will be called out. You cherry picked a verse TOTALLY out of context to try to prove a point...that is eisegesis....not to mention you made Scripture contradict itself since we are told to judge and judge righteously.

Matt 7 is NOT telling us NOT to judge, but HOW to judge....by examining yourself first then judging righteously as we are told.

 

[pilgrim]

When you display biblical ignorance for all to see it will be called out. You cherry picked a verse TOTALLY out of context to try to prove a point...that is eisegesis....not to mention you made Scripture contradict itself since we are told to judge and judge righteously.

Matt 7 is NOT telling us NOT to judge, but HOW to judge....by examining yourself first then judging righteously as we are told.

“Judge not, that you be not judged.

I think Matthew can speak for himself.

 

[4Him]

“Judge not, that you be not judged.

I think Matthew can speak for himself.

And you continue to display your ignorance of Scripture as you continue to ignore the context which is about showing us how to NOT judge hypocritically.

Your own church even agrees with me on this.....you need to sit this one out.

 

[dingoling.]

Said the poster who never answers simple questions.

I can't count the times my questions were not answered.

 

[4Him]

I can't count the times my questions were not answered.

Said the poster that NEVER answers simple questions. Self awareness level: zero

 

[organgrinder]

You must interpret our posts in the same way you interpret scripture.

I didn't know your posts were inspired by the Holy Spirit! Who knew!!!??

 

[balshan]

“Judge not, that you be not judged.

I think Matthew can speak for himself.

Matt did and you are wrong. You cannot speak for him, which you are and you are deliberately changing what he wrote. Later on in that passage there is a clear warning about your leaders.

Wasn't it Jesus speaking and Matt just recording His words.

 

[dingoling.]

I didn't know your posts were inspired by the Holy Spirit! Who knew!!!??

I,didn't say that they were.