Whenever you stop accusing Jesus of gnosticism.
And that life is the same life in the Father Jesus received from Him in Matt 3:16 to live it himself just as we all do who has received from God the very same as he did.
Many unwittingly lie about Romans 7
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JonHawk
Well-known member
You still haven't answered how you received Jesus, was it by faith or at the tree of knowledge?
God made foolish the wisdom of this world. 1 Cor 1:19-21
Yes I have answered a hundred times. By the same Spirit who came to Jesus and spend up who God is in that man by His Spirit is the same One who came and did the same in me.
He does indeed, especially those who accuse Jesus of gnosticism.
JonHawk
Well-known member
Especially those who think that they can be made right with God outside of faith in Christ Jesus;
who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30-31
Josheb
Well-known member
First, nowhere does scripture state the law has been done away with at all times in all circumstances for all Christians. Romans chapter 7 never says any such thing. Verses found elsewhere in Romans clearly imply the law was relevant to Paul's discourse of Romans in its entirety. PAUL REPEATEDLY APPLIED THE LAW TO HIS READERS THROUGHOUT HIS EPISTLES!!!!!!! and he did so to BOTH Jewish and Gentile converts.
He did not do so asserting the law as a means of obtaining righteousness of justification, though.
That takes care of the first part of this op.
If that statement or this opening post is intended to imply a person may become ontologically sinless and perfect on this of the grave, then you're the one in the wrong here. Let me encourage you to clarify your position and intent here because it is sinless perfectionism that is the false teaching.
Well....... there are such things as 1) "honest mistakes," or unintended factual errors, 2) false teachings, or those positions based on factual errors but wherein no deceit is intended, and 3) lies, or the asserting of factual errors known to be factual errors and asserted falsely with an intention to deceive. In other words, there is a difference between a falsehood and a lie. A lie necessarily entails a knowing and willful intent to deceive.
You should know before this thread gets to long the CARM forum rules, or terms of use prohibit the use of personal attacks claiming people are lying. The rule does "permits referring to a group/cult/religion as teaching lies," so make sure posts are posted accordingly. I will report any poster and his/her posts that violate Rule 12.8.
To my knowledge none of the forum members currently in this thread willfully intend to deceive you or anyone else. Myself included. I, personally, have engaged this matter of sinless perfectionism before and it is always the advocate of sinless perfectionism failing to acknowledge the whole of scripture, the ones shown to use scripture selectively AND in a manner inconsistent with the precedent or examples of the prophets and apostles themselves.
The fact is both Peter and Paul sinned after having been regenerate and receiving salvation from sin and wrath. Peter behaved hypocritically with the Jewish and Gentile converts, and Paul plainly stated he could see the law of sin and death at work in his being.
Romans 7:21-24
I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am!
Those statements are stated in the present tense, not past-tense. Decades after having been saved Paul plainly stated evil was still present in him and he was a wretched man. It is only through resurrection that we are made perfect, incorruptible and immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:42-54
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Perfection, imperishability/incorruptibility, and immortality are our inheritance, and they await us on the other side of the grave, not here on earth in what remains of corruptible flesh and blood. Every single verse you will cite in support of your op will have to reconcile with these vereses and those defining sin as something more or other than lawlessness.
I will address the rest of the op later as I have time and inclination.
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I see' so Jesus lied in Matt 5:48 and you are not supposed to be perfected in the Father?
Factual errors such as Matt 5:48 where you say Jesus tries to deceive you?
But didnt you just accuse Jesus of lying in Matt 5:48? Here I quote what you wrote.
" Let me encourage you to clarify your position and intent here because it is sinless perfectionism that is the false teaching.
According to you Jesus was a false teacher.
So your way for sinless perfection instead of Jesus way for sinless perfection is the right one?
If they were in sin they wasn't regenerated at all for regeneration it. to put you back to that original state of no sin.
You doest seem to understand that we who are born of God, born again to be like Him, we cannot sin, impossible to be in sin. See 1 John 3:9. And if you are a sinner as you said of these, then they are of 1 John 3:8.
Now we will see how you try and explain that away.
Yes he never was delivered by God from it. God takes away the sins of this world not promote it with a white wash.
That is why I follow Jesu sin perfections of the Father instead of Paul or others who never knew what it was to have from God His perfections.
On the other side of the grave? The grave it to late to know God at all by then, if you cant see Him now what makes you think you will when you are dead?
You should start listening to Jesus if your intent is to be a witness of the Father as Jesus was witness of Him and perfect even as your Father unshaven is perfect. Do you know why you cant be perfect as He is perfect? I do!
Luke 17:20-21, the kingdom fo God doesn't come with observation, it is within you. You are seeking one that you can observe just as you just stated instead of living it this day. These are seeking a man to come as a god instead of receieveg the One that Jesus did in Matt 3:16 themselves.
Amen either you are like Him or you are not and have no faith in God to give you the same at all.
Same Spirit of God in me who was in Christ Jesus for sure for we are Gods anointed, Christ in us just as Jesus was anointed of God.
You are different from His anointing aren't you?
JonHawk
Well-known member
. This old command is the word you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 1 John 2:3:7-9
Amen if one is a sinner he tells who he is of, 1 John 3:8, if one is perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect then you are of God as Jesus was of Him, 1 John 3 :9.
JonHawk
Well-known member
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 1 John 4:9
The reason His son Gary appeared was to be like Him, so was His son Jesus. We are His children and He sends us all to who has from Him the same as Jesus did. Not many will listen to Jesus in his ways in the Father, let alone listen to me when I quote him, LOL.
The only way you can begotten of God is if you are.
There is no other way to know Him least you are born of God to be like Him as Jesus was. See Matt 3:16 when this happened in Jesus, born again, receieveing information that he didnt have prior to. He was of the One and Only as well. There is only One Spirit of God and either you are begotten of the same One Jesus was begotten of to be like Him as Jesus was -- or you are not begotten of Gods same Spirit. And obviously you do not know what it is to begotten of God yourself. .
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JonHawk
Well-known member
In the same way, Christ was also offered once to take on himself the sins of many people. He appears a second time, not to take away sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. Heb 9:25-28
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:11-12
For by one Spirit we were all baptized and made part of the body of Christ. Now we each drink from that same Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13
So that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6:4
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:11-12
Christ is Gods Spirit, mind, in any man who is anointed by God Himself.
Unless you are a sinner instead, as Paul claimed he was.
Holy pure and without sin. Paul wasn't without sin.
That is right and either you are His son and live the life of the Father as Jesus did or you are not His son and different from Him.
JonHawk
Well-known member
"My peace I give to you" john 14:27
Pursue peace and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Heb 12:14
Therefore, having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; Rom 5:1
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If one has the same mind of the Father then peace and holiness is an automatic and not a persue.
JonHawk
Well-known member
Through faithfulness you shall know the Lord. Hosea 2:20
According to you, all you had to do was pursue perfection at the tree of knowledge and as a result you are completely ignorant of the redemption that comes through faith in Christ.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, Col 1:15-18
Josheb
Well-known member
Your rhetoric is sinful and will not be enjoined my saying so. Change your attitude. Then change your method. Demonstrate some sincerity and authenticity and maybe - maybe - once having seen some evidence of godly conduct in word and method, maybe I'll trade posts with you.
Because you do NOT see correctly, and the rhetoric proves it.
To be like you?
To be as you?
Well at least I didnt call you sheep in wolves clothing or a din of thieves, or a viper, or get so mad that I would go into your church and turn over tables and chairs and make a whip and drive you out. Heck I am mild compared to Jesus godly conduct as you call it. Perhaps he should have adjusted his attitude as well to have your approval? Perhaps he could please you if he did? But I doubt.
Perhaps it isn't I who doesnt have the mind of the father and see correctly?
The real truth here is you want me to be like you in your religious mind instead of like Jesus and have the mind of the Father myself as he had from Him and said I need the same.
Hey, it worked for me!
JonHawk
Well-known member
“For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” John 9:39
Yes-- either you see as Jesus saw by having the mind of the Father as Jesus had, or you see as the religious minds and blind to seeing what Jesus saw from the Father to be as He is and perfect as He is perfect. Walk as He walks in His same light.
Until one receives from God that what Jesus did in Matt 3:16 then one can only see through your own eyes and made glide by the laws of it that one cant see as Jesus saw if the Father to be like him yourself as Jesus was like Him.