Does John 17:12 imply that Judas lost his salvation

Howie said:
Not salvation. It is ALL a gift from God, and not from you, AT ALL (Eph2:8-9).

You reading your presuppositions into scripture.

Salvation and faith are gifts - you can't buy them because you don't have currency.

One is saved by Christ's righteousness.
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Salvation in both the OT and NT has always been conditional upon obedience. Even in the OT, though the Jews were God's chosen they still had to be obedient to God which they were not, hence cast off (Rom 11). IF salvation were uncondtional then all men would unconditionally be saved (Tts 2:11)

Tons of examples from the Bible of God's free gifts being conditional. Already gave you one with Naaman. Another is Noah, (Heb 11) by faith Noah moved with fear prepared an ark in the saving of his house. The saving of Noah's house was a free gracious gift of God for God certainly did not owe that to Noah. Yet it took Noah's obedience in building the ark to receive that free gift of God and his obedience to God earned him nothing but just meeting a necessary condition God placed upon His free gift.

One cannot buy salvation with money but one can meet the necessary condition of obedience God has placed upon the free gift of salvation. Again, Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world He GAVE His only begotten Son. The word 'gave' means Christ was a free gift God gave to the world for God sure did not owe the world the gift of a Saviour. But in order to be saved by that free gift of the Christ requires one to meet the condition in obeying Christ (Heb 5:9). Again, obedience earns nothing (Luke 17:7-10)
 
Howie said:
You read that into the verse.

The verse states, those to whom Jesus gives eternal life, shall NEVER perish..

That is clearly stated in the passage.
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The ones that SHALL NEVER perish are the ones that CONDITIONALLY remain a sheep of Christ by having an ongoing sustained hearing and following. One of their own volition chooses to hear and follow and one can by that same volition choose to quit hearing and falling and no longer be a sheep of Christ and therefore SHALL PERISH. Obediently hearing and following do not earn eternal life but are required conditions God has placed upon His free gift of eternal life.
 
Gomer said:
The ones that SHALL NEVER perish are the ones that CONDITIONALLY remain a sheep of Christ by having an ongoing sustained hearing and following. One of their own volition chooses to hear and follow and one can by that same volition choose to quit hearing and falling and no longer be a sheep of Christ and therefore SHALL PERISH. Obediently hearing and following do not earn eternal life but are required conditions God has placed upon His free gift of eternal life.
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That's not what it says. You're reading your presuppositions into the text.
 
Gomer said:
The context DOES says Judas was given and kept, the context does NOT say Judas was always lost.
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NOBODY was "saved" in the NEW COVENANT SENSE unto AFTER Calvary. The Holy SPirit FIRST indwelled as recorded in John 20:22. Before that, all people were unregerates, some of whom "believed" (Had mental assent), and most who didn't. But Judas DIED before there WAS a "Born Again Christianity" in existence.
 
Johnnybgood said:
No it doesn’t ?
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Yes, it does.

Salvation has never been by obedience to the law because you can't keep the law (Rim 3:20).

Salvation is received by faith (Rom 416ff).

You can't keep salvation, but are kept by God to salvation through faith (1 Pet 1:1-9).

You never answered me, what's "WFC?"
 
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Howie said:
If Jesus gave Judas eternal life, then Judas saved. It's as simple as that (Jn 10:27-28).

I don't believe Judas was saved.
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John 10 is OLD TESTAMENT. Nobody was "Saved"!!! that wasn't even POSSIBLE in John 10. Jesus hadn't made the SIN OFFERING by which we're cleansed of our SIN yet. NOBODY "went heaven" - they went down to the place of the dead as humans loaded with SIN, but since they died in FAITH, Abraham's Bosom was their temporary holding place - until. NOBODY in John 10 was infilled with the Holy Spirit - yet.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
John 10 is OLD TESTAMENT. Nobody was "Saved"!!! that wasn't even POSSIBLE in John 10. Jesus hadn't made the SIN OFFERING by which we're cleansed of our SIN yet. NOBODY "went heaven" - they went down to the place of the dead as humans loaded with SIN, but since they died in FAITH, Abraham's Bosom was their temporary holding place - until. NOBODY in John 10 was infilled with the Holy Spirit - yet.
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Thanks, Bob.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
NOBODY was "saved" in the NEW COVENANT SENSE unto AFTER Calvary. The Holy SPirit FIRST indwelled as recorded in John 20:22. Before that, all people were unregerates, some of whom "believed" (Had mental assent), and most who didn't. But Judas DIED before there WAS a "Born Again Christianity" in existence.
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Are you suggesting everyone who lived prior to Christ's death all were lost??
 
Howie said:
That's not what it says. You're reading your presuppositions into the text.
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The "they' refers only to those who are Christ's sheep that hear and follow Christ. Nothing in any context says one can quit hearing and following Christ and be saved anyway.
 
Howie said:
Salvation has been by grace through faith (Eph 2:8ff; cf Gen 15:6).
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Heb 11 gives examples of OT characters that had an obedient faith as in the conversions in the NT had an obedient faith in obeying the gospel of Christ.
No obedience to God's will = no salvation. One cannot quit hearing/following Christ yet be saved anyway.
 
Gomer said:
Are you suggesting everyone who lived prior to Christ's death all were lost??
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I wouldn't exactly say they were "lost" because they had God's promise of a Christ (Messiah) to guide them. The important thing is that with the advent of the Cross, all OT Saints are now saved. There is no other way to be saved than through the Cross and OT Saints are no different.
 
Gomer said:
Heb 11 gives examples of OT characters that had an obedient faith as in the conversions in the NT had an obedient faith in obeying the gospel of Christ.
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You are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and you are to love your neighbor as yourself ... on thisr commandmentsvrest all the law and the prophets ... Mt 22:40.

You have NEVER been obedient to those two commandments

Gomer said:
No obedience to God's will = no salvation. One cannot quit hearing/following Christ yet be saved anyway.
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Then you are not saved, Gomer (see above.)
 
Johnnybgood said:
Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound , may it never be !

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality,impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
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@Johnnybgood admonishing his sinful self ...
 
Synergy said:
I wouldn't exactly say they were "lost" because they had God's promise of a Christ (Messiah) to guide them. The important thing is that with the advent of the Cross, all OT Saints are now saved. There is no other way to be saved than through the Cross and OT Saints are no different.
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13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.... 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
 
Johnnybgood said:
These two are linked together as mandatory for salvation . One cannot disobey God and be saved. Only the obedient are saved .
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The standard of obedience is the perfection of the Father (Mt 5:48).

Because if that standard, NONE of you will ever make it to heaven ...

Nevertheless, I wish you will in your futile quest.
 
Gomer said:
Are you suggesting everyone who lived prior to Christ's death all were lost??
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Nope - those WHO DIED IN FAITH (that God would provide a way) went to "Abraham's Bosom" - to WAIT until the provision for them would be made on Calvary - thousands of years (for some) in the future. It's all in the Bible.
 
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