The efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God to everyone everywhere.

[Synergy]

Since you can't refute the theology of Calvinism,

Here is what you wrote:
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
That is, his faith is justified ("vindicated", or "completed", v.22) by his works.

In your hands, James 2:24 goes from:
1) "a person is justified" to "his faith is justified",
2) "justified by works and not by faith only" to "justified by his works",
3) "justified" to either "vindicated" or "completed",

Wow! I've never witnessed such flagrant subject, object, and word revisioning of scripture.
Someone better start refuting this flagrant revisioning attempt of scripture before it infects more verses.

 

[Simpletruther]

Paul’s message of salvation to everyone everywhere (Rom 10:8-13) has no mention of any regeneration before faith.

You ate mistaken. "Has passed from death to life" is regeneration.

The Word of God is effectual for those who believe (1 Th 2:13), not that they are regenerated before they believe.

Actually both are true.

The one who believes on Him has passed from death to life (John 5:24) without any mention of regeneration before believing.

See above. The "death to life"happens first. It's past tense. Believes is present tense.

So death to life comes before belief.

 

[Howie]

The Word of God is effectual for those who believe (1 Th 2:13), not that they are regenerated before they believe.

And not that they believed before they were regenerated.

 

[Howie]

Our faith, repentance, and preordained good works is establishing our own righteousness? Are you saying that we can be saved without faith, repentance, and preordained good works? Am I reading you correctly?

Are you a Calvinist, if you don't mind my asking?

By whose righteousness are you saved, @Synergy?

 

[Alkaline_9.5]

Rom 4:1-5 ... What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

The one who works is due something, as an obligation.

"speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]"

One who does not work is blessed in a different way and walking in complete ability in all the ways of God.

 

[Christian]

It looks like Calvinism has dropped the ball when it comes to believing the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God to everyone everywhere. Because of that, they have had to concoct theories such as regeneration before belief, unconditional election to salvation, and irresistible grace to fill in for the holes that this glaring disbelief/oversight produced.

Paul’s Message of Salvation to Everyone Everywhere with no mention of any pre-regeneration anywhere:
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him.
Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The Word of God is effectual for those who believe, not that they are pre-regenerated to believe.
1 Th 2:13 And for this cause we thank God without ceasing, that when you received the Word of hearing, of God, you welcomed it as the Word of God, not as a word of men, but as it is, truly the Word of God, which also effectually works in you who believe.

The one who believes on Him has passed from death to life. Any mention of a regeneration before believing? Nope.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

What did new converts possess before believing? An unsealed Holy Spirit of promise?
Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

amen preach the truth brother !

 

[Synergy]

Perhaps this is what you believe, yet at the same time the mud comes flying from the other side. There are a couple of them here that no matter what you show them your beliefs are (why we believe we are elect, for instance) they will continue to libel. But, they have to, because nothing true actually sticks, so they stay with the libelous claims and ignore our responses only to repeat the same libel.

THAT is mud-slinging.

Now, the slinging has not been as much of late due to a certain "vacation." There were a couple of others that are now banned permanently, or there would be more mud. These "two" turned an immediate 180 exactly at the same time the ring misleader did.

That was, well, quite interesting. It was duly noted.

Now, did you tell any of these to knock it off, or is your hate for Calvin causing you to misjudge and see posts through your lens of disdain? What I mean is, I don't see you as being truly concerned with the mud-slinging, until you percieve it coming from those you dislike.

I think we should all maintain focus on the Bible with the goal of sharpening each other's knowledge of it. Doing so will eliminate a huge portion of ad hominem "mud slinging". My experience here has been more positive than negative in the sense that it's forced me to learn a lot about Biblical predestination, election, election to salvation, and especially the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God in my debates within this forum.

I was taken aback when one of the posters on your side said, "no we don't" when I mentioned that he needs to prove that the Bible supports his Calvinist views. If that's generally the case amongst Calvinists then I'm shocked. That's because the Bible is our only common spiritual objective reference of truth and without it we'll be subjectively talking past each other from now until Kingdom come. Without the objective truth that the Bible communicates to us then our subjective realities will reign supreme and go hog wild which is a clear recipe for disaster. Furthermore, if it's subjective truth that is promoted in CARM then that fact needs to be clearly communicated.

As to your OP, wonderful Scriptures, of course, yet none of them prove your case. And? There is no such thing as "pre-regeneration" and that is an intentional straw man and/or misundertsanding on your part.

You do realize falsely representing a group is mud-slinging, correct?

The term "pre-regeneration" is just shorthand I was using for regeneration before salvific belief/faith. If you don't want me to use that term then I'm ok with that. Everyone else understood what I meant. To me this is a minute matter compared to all other matters I wrote about in my other paragraphs.

Ephesians 2 is sufficient enough to refute you and your denial of God regenerating those dead in sin to spiritual life. This is what "made alive" (Ephesians 2:5) means, and any honest person can see in the context of this that it took place while we were dead in sins. In fact, all of it took place while we were dead in sins. Brought to life, then saved.

God did that.

Note the order:

1. Made us alive together with Christ.
2. Saved us.
3. Raised us up with Him.
4. Seated us in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Thank you for your reply. It's clear that you only glanced through my OP since you made no mention of Eph 1:13. It mentions that in Christ, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Clearly our hearing and belief in Christ comes before being sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. In fact, there is no mention of any form of a regeneration in any verse before Eph 1:13.

Eph 1:13 then leads into Eph 2 which follows the order of events you mentioned. To be made alive (Eph 2:1,5) is through the promised Holy Spirit mentioned in Eph 1:13. To be saved in Christ is after our hearing and belief in Christ mentioned in Eph 1:13. To be raised up and seated with Christ makes Eph 1:4 understandable in that we are truly chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world after our belief "in Christ", mentioned in Eph 1:13. Paul doesn't leave us guessing and having to fill in the holes for him because he explains and sequences everything. He is clearly an inspired and brilliant expositor who is very clear in his communications.

I'm not certain why people who misbelieve like you take such an issue with these truths, and spend such an exorbitant amount of time to grant to your glory what God did, who alone should get all the glory.

Again, it's obvious that you only glanced through my OP. I strongly believe in the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God and take no credit or glory whatsoever of all the glory is 100% due the Word of God. So it's appropriate for me to tell you what you accused me of earlier: "You do realize falsely representing a group is mud-slinging, correct?"

It's the Calvinists who have dropped the ball when it comes to believing the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God to everyone everywhere. Because of or leading up to that fault, Calvinism have iconoclastically stripped the icon of God (man) of all his God-given abilities to hear and believe the Gospel of our Lord. Iconoclasm is defined as the smashing of icons and that's exactly what Calvinists do spiritually with the icons of God (man). Calvinists are smashing them spiritually. The Greek OT & NT refer to us as icons (Gen 1:26) and also calls Jesus the Icon of God (Col 1:15, Heb 1:3, 2 Cor 4:4). We are also predestined to be conformed to the Icon of His Son (Rom 8:29, 2 Cor 3:18). In summary, it's Calvinists who are spending an exorbitant amount of time desecrating and at times showing disdain for the icons of God which God has formed and blessed.

But, nevertheless and remarkably that is what you do. I don't believe you can even see it for what it is.

I hear and understand what you're saying. In all due respect, do you understand what I'm saying?

 

[Christian]

I think we should all maintain focus on the Bible with the goal of sharpening each other's knowledge of it. Doing so will eliminate a huge portion of ad hominem "mud slinging". My experience here has been more positive than negative in the sense that it's forced me to learn a lot about Biblical predestination, election, election to salvation, and especially the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God in my debates within this forum.

I was taken aback when one of the posters on your side said, "no we don't" when I mentioned that he needs to prove that the Bible supports his Calvinist views. If that's generally the case amongst Calvinists then I'm shocked. That's because the Bible is our only common spiritual objective reference of truth and without it we'll be subjectively talking past each other from now until Kingdom come. Without the objective truth that the Bible communicates to us then our subjective realities will reign supreme and go hog wild which is a clear recipe for disaster. Furthermore, if it's subjective truth that is promoted in CARM then that fact needs to be clearly communicated.

The term "pre-regeneration" is just shorthand I was using for regeneration before salvific belief/faith. If you don't want me to use that term then I'm ok with that. Everyone else understood what I meant. To me this is a minute matter compared to all other matters I wrote about in my other paragraphs.

Thank you for your reply. It's clear that you only glanced through my OP since you made no mention of Eph 1:13. It mentions that in Christ, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Clearly our hearing and belief in Christ comes before being sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. In fact, there is no mention of any form of a regeneration in any verse before Eph 1:13.

Eph 1:13 then leads into Eph 2 which follows the order of events you mentioned. To be made alive (Eph 2:1,5) is through the promised Holy Spirit mentioned in Eph 1:13. To be saved in Christ is after our hearing and belief in Christ mentioned in Eph 1:13. To be raised up and seated with Christ makes Eph 1:4 understandable in that we are truly chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world after our belief "in Christ", mentioned in Eph 1:13. Paul doesn't leave us guessing and having to fill in the holes for him because he explains and sequences everything. He is clearly an inspired and brilliant expositor who is very clear in his communications.

Again, it's obvious that you only glanced through my OP. I strongly believe in the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God and take no credit or glory whatsoever of all the glory is 100% due the Word of God. So it's appropriate for me to tell you what you accused me of earlier: "You do realize falsely representing a group is mud-slinging, correct?"

It's the Calvinists who have dropped the ball when it comes to believing the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God to everyone everywhere. Because of or leading up to that fault, Calvinism have iconoclastically stripped the icon of God (man) of all his God-given abilities to hear and believe the Gospel of our Lord. Iconoclasm is defined as the smashing of icons and that's exactly what Calvinists do spiritually with the icons of God (man). Calvinists are smashing them spiritually. The Greek OT & NT refer to us as icons (Gen 1:26) and also calls Jesus the Icon of God (Col 1:15, Heb 1:3, 2 Cor 4:4). We are also predestined to be conformed to the Icon of His Son (Rom 8:29, 2 Cor 3:18). In summary, it's Calvinists who are spending an exorbitant amount of time desecrating and at times showing disdain for the icons of God which God has formed and blessed.

I hear and understand what you're saying. In all due respect, do you understand what I'm saying?

Well said brother with plenty of biblical points made with scripture references. Amen !

 

[Synergy]

By whose righteousness are you saved, @Synergy?

Last time I checked I don't possess the superpower to save myself.

Nevertheless, Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."

 

[Howie]

It looks like Calvinism has dropped the ball when it comes to believing the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God to everyone everywhere. Because of that, they have had to concoct theories such as regeneration before belief, unconditional election to salvation, and irresistible grace to fill in for the holes that this glaring disbelief/oversight produced.

Paul’s Message of Salvation to Everyone Everywhere with no mention of any pre-regeneration anywhere:
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him.
Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The Word of God is effectual for those who believe, not that they are pre-regenerated to believe.
1 Th 2:13 And for this cause we thank God without ceasing, that when you received the Word of hearing, of God, you welcomed it as the Word of God, not as a word of men, but as it is, truly the Word of God, which also effectually works in you who believe.

The one who believes on Him has passed from death to life. Any mention of a regeneration before believing? Nope.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

What did new converts possess before believing? An unsealed Holy Spirit of promise?
Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Your position is that the word of God is effective in saving all men?

That makes you a universalist; doesn't it?

 

[Howie]

Last time I checked I don't possess the superpower to save myself.

When was the last time you checked?

 

[eternomade]

Our faith, repentance, and preordained good works is establishing our own righteousness? Are you saying that we can be saved without faith, repentance, and preordained good works? Am I reading you correctly?

Yes exactly. I believe God's people in Christ were saved at the cross by the shedding of blood. I believe that faith, repentance and good works are evidence of salvation, or fruit of the Spirit.

Are you a Calvinist, if you don't mind my asking?

I don't mind at all. I believe the Doctrine of grace. I do not consider myself a Calvinist though. Calvin "baptized" infants and believed other things I do not believe. I have been called a hyper Calvinist, but I do believe evangelism is essential and instrumental in the Spirit's work in revealing Christ in the elect.

 

[eternomade]

Here is what you wrote:
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
That is, his faith is justified ("vindicated", or "completed", v.22) by his works.

In your hands, James 2:24 goes from:
1) "a person is justified" to "his faith is justified",
2) "justified by works and not by faith only" to "justified by his works",
3) "justified" to either "vindicated" or "completed",

Wow! I've never witnessed such flagrant subject, object, and word revisioning of scripture.
Someone better start refuting this flagrant revisioning attempt of scripture before it infects more verses.

The context of James is justification before man, where the context of Romans is justification before God.

 

[cadwell]

You ate mistaken. "Has passed from death to life" is regeneration.

Actually both are true.

See above. The "death to life"happens first. It's past tense. Believes is present tense.

So death to life comes before belief.

In John 5:24, the object of "passed from death to life" is "judgment". Meaning the regeneration comes before judgment, not belief. Jesus proves this in the very next verse, which carries a dual meaning.

v 24: He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me,
v25: the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God

v24: is passed from death unto life.
v25: and they that hear shall live.

 

[Theo1689]

I was taken aback when one of the posters on your side said, "no we don't" when I mentioned that he needs to prove that the Bible supports his Calvinist views.

Then you reject the teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ:

Matt. 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

And guess what? You are PROVING Jesus' teaching to be true. You are trying to make it sound like I believe we don't need to have our beliefs conform to the Bible. I HAVE proven my beliefs Biblical, both to myself, and to others. But I am under absolutely NO OBLIGATION to expose them to people who have no interest in charitable and good faith discussion, and only want to tear apart and insult.

Furthermore, if it's subjective truth that is promoted in CARM then that fact needs to be clearly communicated.

This is why I reject your false theology, since it is subjective and anti-Biblical.

Thank you for your reply. It's clear that you only glanced through my OP since you made no mention of Eph 1:13. It mentions that in Christ, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Clearly our hearing and belief in Christ comes before being sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. In fact, there is no mention of any form of a regeneration in any verse before Eph 1:13.

You see? In your tone and wording in every post, you demonstrate that you REFUSE to even consider any view other than your own, proving that it's a colossal waste of time trying to debate you. All you do is tell us we're wrong and then you insult us. This is a waste of our time.

It's the Calvinists who have dropped the ball when it comes to believing the efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God to everyone everywhere.

All you do is insult Calvinists.
Why would we want to have anything to do with that?

Calvinism have iconoclastically stripped the icon of God (man) of all his God-given abilities to hear and believe the Gospel of our Lord.

All you do is insult Calvinists.
Why would we want to have anything to do with that?

In summary, it's Calvinists who are spending an exorbitant amount of time desecrating and at times showing disdain for the icons of God which God has formed and blessed.

All you do is insult Calvinists.
Why would we want to have anything to do with that?

 

[Howie]

In John 5:24, the object of "passed from death to life" is "judgment". Meaning the regeneration comes before judgment, not belief. Jesus proves this in the very next verse, which carries a dual meaning.

v 24: He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me,
v25: the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God

v24: is passed from death unto life.
v25: and they that hear shall live.

Judgement passed from death to life?

You can't be serious, @cadwell

 

[Synergy]

Your position is that the word of God is effective in saving all men?

That makes you a universalist; doesn't it?

The Word of God effectually works in all men who believe the Word of God.

Read 1 Th 2:13 which I quoted in my OP:

1 Th 2:13 And for this cause we thank God without ceasing, that when you received the Word of hearing, of God, you welcomed it as the Word of God, not as a word of men, but as it is, truly the Word of God, which also effectually works in you who believe.

 

[Howie]

The Word of God effectually works in all men who believe the Word of God.

Does God's grace do that as well?

 

[Synergy]

Does God's grace do that as well?

God's Grace is so expansive that I hesitate to issue out a blanket statement for your question. You need to be more specific and refer me to a passage or two so that we have a common source of reference and context.

 

[Christian]

In John 5:24, the object of "passed from death to life" is "judgment". Meaning the regeneration comes before judgment, not belief. Jesus proves this in the very next verse, which carries a dual meaning.

v 24: He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me,
v25: the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God

v24: is passed from death unto life.
v25: and they that hear shall live.

Spot on brother ??