The efficaciousness of the proclaimed Word of God to everyone everywhere.

[Synergy]

Yes exactly. I believe God's people in Christ were saved at the cross by the shedding of blood.

Yes, I believe that all OT & NT believers are saved only at the foot of the Cross, by the shedding of Christ's blood.

I believe that faith, repentance and good works are evidence of salvation, or fruit of the Spirit.

Unfortunately, here is where we part. How can you be saved if you do not believe, and haven't repented of your former ways?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

I don't mind at all. I believe the Doctrine of grace. I do not consider myself a Calvinist though. Calvin "baptized" infants and believed other things I do not believe. I have been called a hyper Calvinist, but I do believe evangelism is essential and instrumental in the Spirit's work in revealing Christ in the elect.

So, you're more of a Reformed Christian or a Reformed Baptist?

 

[Howie]

God's Grace is so expansive that I hesitate to issue out a blanket statement for your question.

It could damage your position on efficacious gracec if you say the wrong thing. Take yoyr time.

You need to be more specific and refer me to a passage or two so that we have a common source of reference and context.

Your statement above is fine.

 

[eternomade]

So, you're more of a Reformed Christian or a Reformed Baptist?

No. I am not confessional. I closest align to the 1644 LBC but not the 1689.

I'm not in any denomination.

 

[Rockson]

The Calvinist hypocrisy and stigmatizing of others has no limits.

Perhaps very true. I'll forgive them though. I'm reminded of the King story who forgave a servant a great debt. Then he went to one he knew who owed him a debt and refused to forgive him and didn't and I sure don't want to be such a one. I have a debt they have one too, we all want to be forgiven. Mt 18:21

My greatest thought is having a concern as to whether people here and on all other web sites discussing theological matters on all sides is the question do they really and truly even KNOW God. Or do they just know a lot about God and there's a big difference between the two. And I'm not just talking about the bantering back and forth with the Calvinism, Non-Calvinism issue but all things theological. One can be an expert at articulating just what things like the hypostatic union mean...but do they KNOW God themselves. Do they have fellowship with him in the Spirit? I can't think of anything more terrifying and sad then to see religionists who think they were saved and in right standing with God because of mentally agreeing with a doctrine and then have them hear at the ends of life's journey, "I never knew you....Depart...." Oh my! Such would not of course be God's fault for such a one was being presumptuous along the way throwing caution to the wind just assuming things but as I say Oh my!

Signs to look for. Is one hearing God's voice and I don't mean an audible voice but you know that you know God is leading. Also do you receive reproof and yes rebuke from the Lord? That's not a bad thing but a good thing. Hebrews 12 :6 says if you don't have that you better be concerned.

Without certain things you cannot see God. I recall being a Christian in the 70's you would hear something repeated no end. "...without holiness no man shall see the Lord...without holiness no man shall see the Lord!" over and over and over. But that's not the only thing Heb 12:14 stated! Here's what it said,

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: ( and he added) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled...."

The problem? Many can become uncharitable with others being unkind and callous and deceive themselves into thinking that's OK. Is it though? God puts following peace FIRST. If one's paradigm is to have the right doctrine and one doesn't add with it being harmless as a dove what's the concern one should have? Perhaps that they will not see the Lord? Even though one's right and mentally agree with certain doctrines? Yes. Another sign of one having the Spirit flowing through their lives? Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance....Does that mean we're all perfect? Nope. I certainly know I'm not. The question is though what's the pattern of a person? All may fall into something in a moment of weakness BUT what is their continual patten? Is it the flesh or the Spirit? Galatians likewise talks about what the fruits of the flesh are when it comes to unpeaceful things....hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,

Now here's something that I wonder if the world of angels just marvel about. It's one thing to see the people walk in the flesh as it comes to sensualistic things. Darkness and evil for sure but to use the actual revelation of God to be a launch pad to fulfill the lusts of the flesh and really and truly be walking in hatred, wrath and strife........again...My, my, my, my, my! One may deny they're doing this but is God convinced? A red flag of warning God says he will not be mocked. We will reap what we sow. Food for thought for all of us. What is our pattern? I think we all better consider it. PEACE.

 

[Theo1689]

My greatest thought is having a concern as to whether people here and on all other web sites discussing theological matters on all sides is the question do they really and truly even KNOW God. Or do they just know a lot about God and there's a big difference between the two.

Sadly, I agree... There is at least one poster here who I know is not saved, and that person knows very well he doesn't believe. It's like a Mormon poster I knew in another forum many years ago, he loved to debate Calvinism, but years later he emailed me and let me know that he wasn't really a Mormon, but simply liked to debate the point.

And I'm not just talking about the bantering back and forth with the Calvinism, Non-Calvinism issue but all things theological. One can be an expert at articulating just what things like the hypostatic union mean...but do they KNOW God themselves. Do they have fellowship with him in the Spirit?

Maybe you should be concerned about your OWN relationship with God, rather than second-guessing the relationships others have with God, which you cannot possibly know.

I can't think of anything more terrifying and sad then to see religionists who think they were saved and in right standing with God because of mentally agreeing with a doctrine and then have them hear at the ends of life's journey, "I never knew you....Depart...."

You should "make your calling and election sure", and not take it for granted.

Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance....Does that mean we're all perfect? Nope. I certainly know I'm not. The question is though what's the pattern of a person? All may fall into something in a moment of weakness BUT what is their continual patten? Is it the flesh or the Spirit? Galatians likewise talks about what the fruits of the flesh are when it comes to unpeaceful things....hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,

Exactly.
I see an astonishing lack of charity in the posts of many posters here. And sadly, about 90-95% comes from the "anti-Calvinist" side. And if look for "exemplars" as examples to follow, I mostly see Calvinists fitting the bill. Carpenter and ReverendRV are really good examples. Maybe TibiasDad comes close on the anti-Calvinist side. This confirms my personal experience that Calvinism makes one FAR more humble before God than Arminianism does.

 

[preacher4truth]

Perhaps very true. I'll forgive them though. I'm reminded of the King story who forgave a servant a great debt. Then he went to one he knew who owed him a debt and refused to forgive him and didn't and I sure don't want to be such a one. I have a debt they have one too, we all want to be forgiven. Mt 18:21

My greatest thought is having a concern as to whether people here and on all other web sites discussing theological matters on all sides is the question do they really and truly even KNOW God. Or do they just know a lot about God and there's a big difference between the two. And I'm not just talking about the bantering back and forth with the Calvinism, Non-Calvinism issue but all things theological. One can be an expert at articulating just what things like the hypostatic union mean...but do they KNOW God themselves. Do they have fellowship with him in the Spirit? I can't think of anything more terrifying and sad then to see religionists who think they were saved and in right standing with God because of mentally agreeing with a doctrine and then have them hear at the ends of life's journey, "I never knew you....Depart...." Oh my! Such would not of course be God's fault for such a one was being presumptuous along the way throwing caution to the wind just assuming things but as I say Oh my!

Signs to look for. Is one hearing God's voice and I don't mean an audible voice but you know that you know God is leading. Also do you receive reproof and yes rebuke from the Lord? That's not a bad thing but a good thing. Hebrews 12 :6 says if you don't have that you better be concerned.

Without certain things you cannot see God. I recall being a Christian in the 70's you would hear something repeated no end. "...without holiness no man shall see the Lord...without holiness no man shall see the Lord!" over and over and over. But that's not the only thing Heb 12:14 stated! Here's what it said,

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: ( and he added) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled...."

The problem? Many can become uncharitable with others being unkind and callous and deceive themselves into thinking that's OK. Is it though? God puts following peace FIRST. If one's paradigm is to have the right doctrine and one doesn't add with it being harmless as a dove what's the concern one should have? Perhaps that they will not see the Lord? Even though one's right and mentally agree with certain doctrines? Yes. Another sign of one having the Spirit flowing through their lives? Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance....Does that mean we're all perfect? Nope. I certainly know I'm not. The question is though what's the pattern of a person? All may fall into something in a moment of weakness BUT what is their continual patten? Is it the flesh or the Spirit? Galatians likewise talks about what the fruits of the flesh are when it comes to unpeaceful things....hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,

Now here's something that I wonder if the world of angels just marvel about. It's one thing to see the people walk in the flesh as it comes to sensualistic things. Darkness and evil for sure but to use the actual revelation of God to be a launch pad to fulfill the lusts of the flesh and really and truly be walking in hatred, wrath and strife........again...My, my, my, my, my! One may deny they're doing this but is God convinced? A red flag of warning God says he will not be mocked. We will reap what we sow. Food for thought for all of us. What is our pattern? I think we all better consider it. PEACE.

No worries, one can free will themselves into heaven at any given moment of time and they are guaranteed heaven for deciding. Nothing to worry about at all.

 

[LeeH]

This confirms my personal experience that Calvinism makes one FAR more humble before God than Arminianism does.

That is very humble of you.

 

[Theo1689]

That is very humble of you.

Actually, it is, since it was GOD who humbled me.
But you will even criticize someone for sharing their testimony.
You must really hate truth.

 

[Synergy]

Then you reject the teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ:

Matt. 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

And guess what? You are PROVING Jesus' teaching to be true. You are trying to make it sound like I believe we don't need to have our beliefs conform to the Bible. I HAVE proven my beliefs Biblical, both to myself, and to others. But I am under absolutely NO OBLIGATION to expose them to people who have no interest in charitable and good faith discussion, and only want to tear apart and insult.

So don't expose them. You are under no irresistible obligation to do so. Problem solved.

But if you do expose your subjective thoughts in this forum, know that it's open season for anyone to respond. That goes for everyone.

This is why I reject your false theology, since it is subjective and anti-Biblical.

Au contraire, mon amie. My OP is a testament to how Biblically-based my arguments are.

It's your theology that is subjective and anti-Biblical as evidenced by your flagrant and blatant attempt to revise the subject, object, and words of James 2:24. I'm surprised you didn't launch into another one of your emotional outburst of yours in similar fashion to when you stigmatized me as a "kidnapper" and being "someone of your ilk".

You see? In your tone and wording in every post, you demonstrate that you REFUSE to even consider any view other than your own, proving that it's a colossal waste of time trying to debate you. All you do is tell us we're wrong and then you insult us. This is a waste of our time.
All you do is insult Calvinists.
Why would we want to have anything to do with that?
All you do is insult Calvinists.
Why would we want to have anything to do with that?
All you do is insult Calvinists.
Why would we want to have anything to do with that?

In the post that you're responding to here, Preacher4truth accused me of several things. My respond was not an emotional frenzy eruption accusing him of insulting me. I countered with with factual arguments which is what one does in a debate. That's the fine art of debating.

 

[Theo1689]

In the post that you're responding to here, Preacher4truth accused me of several things. My respond was not an emotional frenzy eruption accusing him of insulting me. I countered with with factual arguments which is what one does in a debate. That's the fine art of debating.

You are truly a legend in your own mind.

 

[Theo1689]

That is very humble of you.

It's good to have you acknowledge that you read my posts. That means when I post Scriptural responses which refute your view, the reason you don't respond to them is because you know you can't.

 

[preacher4truth]

In the post that you're responding to here, Preacher4truth accused me of several things.

Um, I refuted the points of your OP. I also showed how the real mud-slinging comes from your side, since you made it a point to bring that upon us in your OP.

Not exactly "the fine art of debating" that you've proclaimed for yourself.

 

[Simpletruther]

In John 5:24, the object of "passed from death to life" is "judgment". Meaning the regeneration comes before judgment, not belief. Jesus proves this in the very next verse, which carries a dual meaning.

v 24: He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me,
v25: the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God

v24: is passed from death unto life.
v25: and they that hear shall live.

In John 5:24, the object of "passed from death to life" is "judgment". Meaning the regeneration comes before judgment, not belief. Jesus proves this in the very next verse, which carries a dual meaning.

v 24: He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me,
v25: the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God

v24: is passed from death unto life.
v25: and they that hear shall live.

That is referring to the physically dead as He goes on to say:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Believing is pleasing to God. The unregenerate are hostile toward God, they CANNOT submit to His law, and they CANNOT please God (Rom 8:6-8).

What more proof do you need that regeneration prior to faith is true and necessary?

It's time you abandon Pelagius.

You cite a scripture about the mind set on the flesh, and you make statements about what hapeens as a result of that. What you are ignoring in that passage is the word "set." Your will sets your mind on the flesh or on the spirit. When your will sets your mind on the flesh then during that time, all that results is of the flesh. But nothing in the verses teaches that your will is unable to set the mind where you choose.

 

[Howie]

You cite a scripture about the mind set on the flesh, and you make statements about what hapeens as a result of that. What you are ignoring in that passage is the word "set." Your will sets your mind on the flesh or on the spirit. When your will sets your mind on the flesh then during that time, all that results is of the flesh. But nothing in the verses teaches that your will is unable to set the mind where you choose.

Not interested, pal.

Folks like you are so mesmerized by the minutiae that you fantasize, that you completely miss the point of passages and wind up spending your life living in left gield, not knowing anything.

Have a nice day.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Not interested, pal.

Folks like you are so mesmerized by the minutiae that you fantasize, that you completely miss the point of passages and wind up spending your life living in left gield, not knowing anything.

Have a nice day.

Can I reword this post for you? You had not thought about the fact that the will is deciding where the mind will be set, and you have no answer because it is contrary to your doctrine, therefore it is easier to demean me than try to see what you are missing
Minutiae is the line by line, precept upon precept discoveries than give us what we need to know

 

[Rockson]

Not interested, pal.

Folks like you are so mesmerized by the minutiae that you fantasize, that you completely miss the point of passages and wind up spending your life living in left gield, not knowing anything.

Have a nice day.

Actually, the other poster was right on not fantasizing anything. What you'd call non-regenerated do have the capacity to set their minds on the flesh or spirit. Romans 1 clearly confirms the unsaved CAN set their minds on the flesh or the Spirit. There you see it's said of cultures which set their minds on the flesh when they could have set them on the Spirit. They suppressed the truth. God did not want them to do that. He said they would be without excuse for doing so. I'd kindly suggest all Calvinists need to mull this over and over in their minds the words, "without excuse" or "with excuse" Without Excuse or With Excuse. Give that continual thought. Don't cast it away as being insignificant. It is significant and very much so!

Can someone HAVE EXCUSE potentially before God? If they couldn't have excuse potentially under certain circumstances, then God wouldn't have used the term. I can't imagine how a Calvinist can believe that if a sinner had to have God regenerate him in order for him to set his mind on the Spirit how they can say the sinner wouldn't HAVE EXCUSE if they didn't. They would have excuse! How could they not? If they were born into this world, NOT THEIR FAULT, unless someone would want to strangely claim it was their fault, (not sure how you could ever do that) but with not even an option to set their mind on the Spirit then that would be an excuse not to receive judgment.

Say what one will but this is the basic foundation of what justice is. They would have excuse. Worldly folk deny this saying the revealed creation Rom 1:20 doesn't prove anything. Doesn't matter what they claim. God says without excuse. They had the ability to have chosen to set their mind on the Spirit and NOT to have suppressed the knowledge of God they had. Now to Calvinists step back and see where your doctrine has taken you. You're actually claiming they didn't have the capacity not to suppress the truth. To even say they didn't have such a capacity you really have no excuse to say that. You may think and claim that you do but God has already defined it. NO you don't. Coming to see this insight I'd be leaving Calvinistic thinking immediately. Staying in such I'd feel I was fighting and resisting the clear statements of God. Consider this food for thought.

 

[Howie]

Actually, the other poster was right on not fantasizing anything. What you'd call non-regenerated do have the capacity to set their minds on the flesh or spirit. Romans 1 clearly confirms the unsaved CAN set their minds on the flesh or the Spirit. There you see it's said of cultures which set their minds on the flesh when they could have set them on the Spirit. They suppressed the truth. God did not want them to do that. He said they would be without excuse for doing so. I'd kindly suggest all Calvinists need to mull this over and over in their minds the words, "without excuse" or "with excuse" Without Excuse or With Excuse. Give that continual thought. Don't cast it away as being insignificant. It is significant and very much so!

Romans 1 says in the day of judgment no one will be able to stand before God and say to Him, "you gave me no evidence of your existence." According to God, His creation is evidence of His existence.

Can someone HAVE EXCUSE potentially before God? If they couldn't have excuse potentially under certain circumstances, then God wouldn't have used the term. I can't imagine how a Calvinist can believe that if a sinner had to have God regenerate him in order for him to set his mind on the Spirit how they can say the sinner wouldn't HAVE EXCUSE if they didn't. They would have excuse! How could they not? If they were born into this world, NOT THEIR FAULT, unless someone would want to strangely claim it was their fault, (not sure how you could ever do that) but with not even an option to set their mind on the Spirit then that would be an excuse not to receive judgment.

You're deceiving yourself. Everyone who hears the Gospel has the opportunity to make a choice regarding Christ. Those whose Father is God, believe. Those whose Father is Satan, reject -- THEY DON'T WANT GOD -- scripture is not hard to understand on that. It's quite clear.

Say what one will but this is the basic foundation of what justice is. They would have excuse. Worldly folk deny this saying the revealed creation Rom 1:20 doesn't prove anything. Doesn't matter what they claim. God says without excuse. They had the ability to have chosen to set their mind on the Spirit and NOT to have suppressed the knowledge of God they had. Now to Calvinists step back and see where your doctrine has taken you. You're actually claiming they didn't have the capacity not to suppress the truth.

Nonsense. That they suppress the truth of the existence of God IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, tells me they know God exists. The idea in that is that the truth of God's existence is like a heavy spring always exerting the pressure of His existence against the creature requiring the creature to be always exerting pressure against the truth. But how much truth? According to Romans 1, not enough to convince them to believe, but enough to convict them for their unbelief. And I say to you, God has the right to reveal to one as much truth as He chooses to reveal and to withhold the rest, and you cannot say to God, "what have you done?!" (Daniel 4:35).

My urging to you is, get with God's program, or you run the risk of perishing for eternity.

To even say they didn't have such a capacity you really have no excuse to say that. You may think and claim that you do but God has already defined it. NO you don't. Coming to see this insight I'd be leaving Calvinistic thinking immediately. Staying in such I'd feel I was fighting and resisting the clear statements of God. Consider this food for thought.

You're clearly not a prophet, Rockson. Get with the program. God has given us enough information about Him and His plan(s) to convict us if we don't.

Same to @Christian, @Synergy, @cadwell, @LeeH, @PeanutGallery, et. al.

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually, the other poster was right on not fantasizing anything. What you'd call non-regenerated do have the capacity to set their minds on the flesh or spirit. Romans 1 clearly confirms the unsaved CAN set their minds on the flesh or the Spirit. There you see it's said of cultures which set their minds on the flesh when they could have set them on the Spirit. They suppressed the truth. God did not want them to do that. He said they would be without excuse for doing so. I'd kindly suggest all Calvinists need to mull this over and over in their minds the words, "without excuse" or "with excuse" Without Excuse or With Excuse. Give that continual thought. Don't cast it away as being insignificant. It is significant and very much so!

You're making a disaster of Scripture by combining texts, and in doing so you are destroying contextual distinctions and meanings. Then you arrive at fallacious conclusions.

But, then again, most of what you are saying isn't actually Scripture at all, it's your take on it, and the texts don't say or mean what you're conveying.

That hermeneutic you've just displayed is a failure to implement 2 Timothy 2:15. To the extreme.

Instead of attempting to get "Calvinists" to follow your erroneous conclusions and "mull" over your erroneous post, perhaps you should;

1. Stop abusing Scripture by misquoting it?

2 Accurately represent Scripture?

3. Be concerned more about what you have done here instead of worrying about "Calvinists?"

 

[cadwell]

That is referring to the physically dead as He goes on to say:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

I said it has dual meaning.