1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
Faith is a non-issue until one believes.

So faith is a non-issue until one has faith?
Talk about a nonsense statement.

Do devils have faith?

They believe, but they do not have faith.


James 2:19-22 King James Version

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?



Devils believe there is One God. Devils also recognized Christ for Who He was:


Matthew 8:28-29 King James Version

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?



So do these demons have faith, Theo?


God bless.


 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Perhaps. But they are an exceptional training tool.

Sorry, but you are not my "trainer".
Get over yourself.

And that is what makes you respond with emotion instead of reasoned argument:

Ad hominem duly noted.
One of the many reasons you can never be my "trainer".
Now please stop harassing me.

you cannot be taught anything, because you know everything, right?

That couldn't be further from the truth.
But thank you for the personal attack.
I can be taught many things, and have been, by effective teachers, of which you are not one.

Your position/s are the right way, and if someone has an opposing view they are infidels, Right?

Thank you for the personal attack.
That is not my position.
Please stop harassing me.

Just respond to the points and Scripture.

Sorry, but you don't get to boss me around.
I have one Lord.
His name is Jesus Christ.
And you ain't Him.
So kindly get over yourself, and stop harassing me.

This is a debate forum, so how about doing a little debating?

I get to choose who I debate and who I don't.
You don't get to "force" me into a debate with you.
So kindly get over yourself and stop harassing me.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
And just as Christians today confuse the debate about whether a man is justified by faith alone or by faith and works (both are equally true),

Again, you are confused.
And I think the reason for that (or at least part of it) is because you are taking the text far too simply. "Justified" (like most other words, in most languages) have multiple meanings. That's why most comprehensive dictionaries list multiple definitions for most words.

We are justified (before God) by faith alone.
Passages like James 2 aren't talking about being "justified" (before God), they are talking about being "vindicated" before men, for one's CLAIM to faith (James 2:14,18).

Well, that almost sounds like a reasonable response.

You are right, Justification is a bit more complex than it appears on the surface, and one thing you don't include in your lecture here is this: Justification has to be viewed in the context it is given. And the context that you seem to have forgotten to include is the whether it is temporal or eternal.

You are never going to understand whether a man is justified by faith alone or faith and works until you can properly contextualize the justification in view.

Let me explain:


Luke 18:10-14 King James Version

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



Was this man justified in a temporal or eternal context?

If eternal, then you have just created two ways of salvation: works, and Christ.

So too with Abraham, he was justified in a temporal context, so arguing Justification by Faith alone from Romans 4 is in error. It is given as an example that God can justify apart from works in the Eternal context.

Let's see how men are justified in an eternal context:


Romans 3:21-26 King James Version

21 But
now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare
his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time
his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Christ had to die in order for men to have a specific focus of faith that would result in Eternal Redemption.

Understanding that the Old Testament saints were not eternally justified by His righteousness goes a long way to clearing up some problems that the Reformation created.

And even worse, how modern Theologians understand and teach what came out of the Reformation.

Justification and Regeneration are two of the big ones.


God bless.




 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
I get to choose who I debate and who I don't.

So stop responding to my texts. That's all you have to do.

But can I suggest to you that it is God that is directing you to respond and that you do not have the ability to exercise your free will and ignore the teaching I am presenting?

;)


God bless.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
They aren't. Example: devils believe, and tremble.

Another example of your confusion.
As I pointed out above, words have different connotations.
So devils "believing" is not saying the same thing as Christians believing.

I agree.

So we then must conclude that there is a difference between believing and having faith, right?

I thought you would come around and see it my way.

;)


God bless.


 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So stop responding to my texts. That's all you have to do.

So stop responding to me and trying to goad me into arguing with you, when I CLEARLY have no interest. That's all YOU have to do.

But can I suggest to you that it is God that is directing you to respond and that you do not have the ability to exercise your free will

"free will" doesn't exist.

and ignore the teaching I am presenting?

I'm doing a great job at ignoring your false teaching.
Now please stop harassing me.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So we then must conclude that there is a difference between believing and having faith, right?

Wrong.
Please stop misrepresenting me.
And please stop harassing me.

Maybe you need to spend less time in "debate" forums, and more time in studying the Bible, since you don't seem to be aware that bearing false witness is a sin.

I thought you would come around and see it my way.

I haven't.
It's clear that you are forced to misrepresent others because they actually DARE to disagree with you.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
On the flip side, we also have to take into account that believing is something that God has to make happen, and He does that through the preaching of the Gospel.

No, He does that through:
- election;
- regeneration;
- giving a new heart of flesh;
- giving faith;
- giving repentance;
- AND through the preaching of the gospel.

The preaching of the gospel alone doesn't regenerate anyone, which is why so many who hear the gospel never believe. God hasn't given them faith TO believe.

You are saying that God does not create belief through the preaching of the Gospel? That's an incredible statement, one easily proved to be in error by Scripture:


Acts 11:13-14 King James Version

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.



Romans 10:13-15 King James Version

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



Paul used questions, as did the Lord, as a teaching tool as well.


God bless.



 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
So stop responding to me and trying to goad me into arguing with you, when I CLEARLY have no interest. That's all YOU have to do.



"free will" doesn't exist.



I'm doing a great job at ignoring your false teaching.
Now please stop harassing me.

God is forcing you to respond to my posts, Theo.

Your beef is with Him, not me.

And since when is responding to a post (which was rather rude in its delivery) harassment?

I am opposing the conclusion that "faith precedes regeneration," which is the OP. You, really, aren't necessarily going to be the one tobenefit from the debate. That doesn't mean those who reject the idea of faith after regeneration cannot oppose that view and present their own view as well as the Scriptural basis for it.

I have just one more statement from your post to respond to, and when I am done with that, I will decline to answer any more of the responses God forced you to make in response to my own response.

However, it's a two-way street: while I will not respond to the responses you make prior to this last post, I will respond to any you make after this statement is addressed (meaning the last post which is in response to the post you originally gave, the rude one).


God bless.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are saying that God does not create belief through the preaching of the Gospel? That's an incredible statement, one easily proved to be in error by Scripture:

I see...
So you think you have a perfect understanding of all Scripture, and can never be wrong in your interpretation.

That's one of the many reasons you can never be my "trainer".

Now please stop harassing me.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
God is forcing you to respond to my posts, Theo.

You continue to teach error.

Your beef is with Him, not me.

No, that is completely false.

And since when is responding to a post (which was rather rude in its delivery) harassment?

When I have repeatedly told you that I have NO interest in "discussion" wit you, and you continue to goad me anyway, THAT is harassment.

I am opposing the conclusion that "faith precedes regeneration,"

Then you "oppose" Scripture.
Btw, don't think we haven't noticed that you continue to RUN AWAY from 1 John 5:1.

I have just one more statement from your post to respond to, and when I am done with that, I will decline to answer any more of the responses God forced you to make in response to my own response.

Praise God and hallelujah!

However, it's a two-way street: while I will not respond to the responses you make prior to this last post,

You may not have noticed this, but I never ASKED you to respond to any of my posts. Unlike you, I don't go around harassing people. You have an overinflated opinion of yourself. Nobody cares about your opinions.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
So I would present my position as agreeing with "regeneration before faith," but not regeneration before believing.

The two statements mean the exact same thing.

I diagree: just because someone believes doesn't mean they exercise faith, nor does it mean that they are exercising belief in The Faith which was not available to men under the Law, or in any Age prior to the formalized Law.

Devils do not have faith.

Faith is a result of belief, and while I dogmatically assert that no man can believe in their natural condition I equally assert that no man can believe until God enlightens their mind.

And it is within that sphere of ministry of God (the Comforter in this Age) that men do in fact make a decision as to whether they will exercise faith in The Faith.

Throughout the Gospels and Epistles men are charged with the task of believing. That cannot be erased from Scripture.

Regeneration is bestowed on those that believe. Belief precedes Regeneration.

And Regeneration is the result of the Work of Christ, and to impose that into the Old Testament is simply a mistake, because Scripture denies that teaching:


Hebrews 9:12-17 King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.



As I said before (and I know you'll be very interested to hear this again), when men today debate whether men are justified by faith alone or justified by faith and works, they substitute justification with Eternal Redemption.

There is a big difference.

So then we see that in a temporal context it equally true that men are justified by faith alone and by faith and works. No contradiction arises in Scripture because when we are speaking in an eternal context God has made it very clear that Eternal Redemption was obtained by Jesus Christ and specifically through His Blood (Death).


Ephesians 2:8-10 King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



It is unfortunate that most make the mistake of seeking to justify the doctrine of salvation by faith through grace, when God has made it clear that men will only ever be saved by His Grace.

That is, we are saved by grace through faith, not saved by faith through grace.

The distinction seems nominal, but I assure you they are not.


God bless.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
He did. See the OP

There is nothing in the OP that shows men were regenerated then had faith.

1 John is dealing with believers in this Age, not Old Testament Saints.

I can show without controversy that the Old Testament Saints were not regenerated:


Hebrews 11:13 King James Version

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



So I will ask you one question: can men be regenerated and not be in Christ?

Okay, two questions: can a man be regenerated and not have received eternal remission of sins through Christ?


God bless.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand (Rom. 5:2 NKJ)


Outstanding.

Now, one question:


Romans 5 King James Version

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:



Is this a temporal context or eternal?

Or both?

Okay, two questions: If we impose an eternal context on this, and only an eternal context, is not Paul teaching that we are justified by our faith that we might be reconciled?

I would suggest the context refers to our temporal existence, rather than trying to impose a dogmatic interpretation into it.

If we do impose that singular context, then you have just supplied a proof text that men have faith before they have peace with God, which is Reconciliation. And Reconciliation is salvation itself.

Furthermore, we see that men have faith before they have access to the grace which creates our standing before God.

See what I mean?

So his statement is speaking, I would suggest, to our temporal disposition, and the statement is basically, "Not only do we have faith and stand by His grace, but we revel in the fact that despite temporal tribulation we can look to God in hope."


God bless.
 
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