DeSantis Is in

[Crazy Ivan]

Minnesota, SS number allows you into the system before you identify yourself, it is not used as an ID or anything. It is one step up from the I am not a robot box. After you are in to the website you go through all the normal stuff to establish residency, citizenship etc.

As for Connecticut, you have to have a Conn. DL which means we already have all your info, no need to prove it again.

Did you read it? It says you can use a drivers license OR SS#.

MN: “You will need your Minnesota driver’s license or Minnesota identification card number. If you don't have one of these, you may use the last four numbers of your Social Security number.”

CT: “When you register to vote, you must provide your Connecticut driver's license number, or if none, the last four digits of your Social Security number.”

Now the real question is why are you playing this silly devil's advocate game? It took us many years even to get to universal suffrage and that is the most fundamental right in our democracy. To that end, any impediment to that right is unreasonable. Unless you can actually demonstrate that there is an actual need for an impediment to increase safety in excess of the inconvenience then restrictions are not justified. Potential voter fraud is so rare already that the disenfranchisement from even losing your ID card is far worse than the "solution" .
As for the well anybody can get there, there is 200 miles as the crow flies between
DMVs where you can get a well accepted ID, that leaves a whole lot of places off that line that 150 miles or more to either location. My sister in law's family has brought numerous relatives over from Vietnam, they don't speak English and have no need of a picture ID for anything not to mention the fact that as a Caucasian , identifying someone reliably by picture? forget it. These are just a few of the potential problems, and nobody has demonstrated any significant risk of even potential fraud.

All of this is to say, maybe none of these things are a problem for you but they do affect some and that is incompatible with making it possible for all US citizens to vote

There’s a million places where your SS# is used for ID purposes. Come on. I can’t have a serious conversation with you if you don’t think this is the case. Happens all the time. Including at many/most doctors offices and the frigging IRS on your tax forms. Plus FAFSA.

https://studentaid.gov/apply-for-aid/fafsa/filling-out

“If you are starting the application for the first time on fafsa.gov, select “Start Here.” Your name and Social Security number must match those on your Social Security card. Follow this tip to avoid getting a notice that your information doesn’t match the Social Security Administration’s records (or your FSA ID account).”

 

[Crazy Ivan]

On the SS issue…here some hilarious stuff, all from the federal government.

Disclosure of Social Security Numbers

www.justice.gov

“(a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.”

Then there’s this:

Social Security's New Policy on Mismatched Employee Information | Gordon Feinblatt LLC

The Social Security Administration (SSA) has revised its policies concerning employers who submit reports containing erroneous or "mismatched" information, i.e., where employees' names and social s

www.gfrlaw.com

“The employer is instructed to provide correct information to the SSA within 60 days. An employer may be fined $50 by the IRS for each time incorrect information is provided. The IRS may also levy a $50 fine on any employee who does not furnish a correct SSN to his or her employer.”


So it‘s illegal for the government to force people to give their SS number, but they will fine a business and individual for not providing their correct SS number.


LOL

 

[Pogo]

I went to both sites, as I said, Minnesota just gets you past the front page. Connecticut basically the same as you cannot use the website unless you already have state issued ID. Again,. what is your point.

Oh, and the link on the ss as id was to the Social Security Administration which says in no uncertain terms that SS# / card is not a valid ID. That some places use it as quick search key has nothing to do with it as an actual ID. and only as a quick way to find a record in a database.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I went to both sites, as I said, Minnesota just gets you past the front page. Connecticut basically the same as you cannot use the website unless you already have state issued ID. Again,. what is your point.

Oh, and the link on the ss as id was to the Social Security Administration which says in no uncertain terms that SS# / card is not a valid ID. That some places use it as quick search key has nothing to do with it as an actual ID. and only as a quick way to find a record in a database.

But that’s using your SS to help identify you. Happens all the time. Unless you think that the requirement to put your SS number on your tax forms or your FAFSA forms or whatever forms is just for record keeping purposes. They do it to match you with the right person in their database. Which is a form of ID.

Have you ever called a bank or insurance company or doctors office or whatever and they ask for the last four digits of your SS number? Never? Happens all the time. It’s obviously so they know it’s YOU. Which is using it for identification purposes.

Look here, from New York:

W-2 Wage and Tax Statement Explained - OPA

www.nyc.gov

​

“You receive three copies of your W-2:

• Copy A - attach it to your state and city or other local tax return
• Copy B - attach it to your federal tax return
• Copy C - keep it for your records

The City sends wage and tax information to the Social Security Administration and the New York State Department of Taxation and Finance.

Box a: Employee's social security number​

This is your taxpayer identification.”

Look at that last line again. They literally say that you give them your social security number and THIS IS YOUR TAXPAYER IDENTIFICATION.

Identification. ID. They use your social security number as your ID.


I mean, I could do this all day.


But whatever. It’s a little off the track from what we’ve been talking about.

 

[Pogo]

Y

On the SS issue…here some hilarious stuff, all from the federal government.

Disclosure of Social Security Numbers

www.justice.gov

“(a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.”

Then there’s this:

Social Security's New Policy on Mismatched Employee Information | Gordon Feinblatt LLC

The Social Security Administration (SSA) has revised its policies concerning employers who submit reports containing erroneous or "mismatched" information, i.e., where employees' names and social s

www.gfrlaw.com

“The employer is instructed to provide correct information to the SSA within 60 days. An employer may be fined $50 by the IRS for each time incorrect information is provided. The IRS may also levy a $50 fine on any employee who does not furnish a correct SSN to his or her employer.”


So it‘s illegal for the government to force people to give their SS number, but they will fine a business and individual for not providing their correct SS number.


LOL

yup, as I said, the government can't use your SS# for eligibility such as voting.

However An employer can and in many cases has to require it as part of eligibility for employment and must report it accurately. Why, to cut down on the undocumented and employers who flout the law generally don't get punished.

Took me several days to find my SS card when this went into effect and I had to find it to show the place I had already been working at for ten years. I finally found the replacement for my original which replacement had taken me months go get due to bureaucracy.

Yes government can impose inconvenient rules,
So once again, what is your point re voter ID?

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Y

yup, as I said, the government can't use your SS# for eligibility such as voting.

However An employer can and in many cases has to require it as part of eligibility for employment and must report it accurately. Why, to cut down on the undocumented and employers who flout the law generally don't get punished.

Took me several days to find my SS card when this went into effect and I had to find it to show the place I had already been working at for ten years. I finally found the replacement for my original which replacement had taken me months go get due to bureaucracy.

Yes government can impose inconvenient rules,
So once again, what is your point re voter ID?

The point is that you either need an ID to register to vote or, if you don’t have that, many states use your SS number (or the last four digits anyway).

Why on earth you went to war over this point, I have no idea.

The government says you can’t use SS# for ID purposes, yet New York actually says your SS# is your taxpayer identification, FAFSA requires it for federal funding, states say you can use it as ID in lieu of a drivers license, and a million enterprises require you to give it to them.

But whatever. Back to voter ID.

And here on this point I asked: if you need an ID of some sort to REGISTER to vote, why is it unreasonable to require that same ID when you vote to show that you are the person who used that same ID to register?

If you have the ID required to register, you have the ID required to actually vote.

 

[Pogo]

Yup, laws sometimes seem silly.

But that’s using your SS to help identify you. Happens all the time. Unless you think that the requirement to put your SS number on your tax forms or your FAFSA forms or whatever forms is just for record keeping purposes. They do it to match you with the right person in their database. Which is a form of ID.

Have you ever called a bank or insurance company or doctors office or whatever and they ask for the last four digits of your SS number? Never? Happens all the time. It’s obviously so they know it’s YOU. Which is using it for identification purposes.

Look here, from New York:

W-2 Wage and Tax Statement Explained - OPA

www.nyc.gov

​

“You receive three copies of your W-2:

• Copy A - attach it to your state and city or other local tax return
• Copy B - attach it to your federal tax return
• Copy C - keep it for your records

The City sends wage and tax information to the Social Security Administration and the New York State Department of Taxation and Finance.

Box a: Employee's social security number​

This is your taxpayer identification.”

Look at that last line again. They literally say that you give them your social security number and THIS IS YOUR TAXPAYER IDENTIFICATION.

Identification. ID. They use your social security number as your ID.


I mean, I could do this all day.


But whatever. It’s a little off the track from what we’ve been talking about.

but SS# is not intended to be used as ID, it is just a shortcut for the government to sort through all the Jorge Mendozas and John Johnsons in the country.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Yup, laws sometimes seem silly.

Silly? The government literally requires SS# for ID purposes even as they say it’s not to be used for ID purposes. You can cite the law that says its not ok to use SS# for ID purposes, but I’ve given you a bunch of examples where it IS used that way, by the very same government no less. It’s just true. Sadly. Nobody said the government was logical or consistent.

but SS# is not intended to be used as ID, it is just a shortcut for the government to sort through all the Jorge Mendozas and John Johnsons in the country.

Uh…..that’s ID. That’s literally how SS# is used as ID, to determine if you are this Jorge Mendoza or that Jorge Mendoza.

You have literally just proved my point. And I thank you for that.

 

[Pogo]

Very simply because for many, the documentation needed to register is not documentation that one carries around on a regular basis, in fact probably should be kept in a safe deposit box.
Now, we could have National IDs like some countries but that concept is very much frowned upon in this country.

As to SS, next time someone asks you for ID, give them your SS card and look at their face.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Very simply because for many, the documentation needed to register is not documentation that one carries around on a regular basis, in fact probably should be kept in a safe deposit box.

from: https://www.voteriders.org/firstvote/

“When you register to vote or vote for the first time in a federal election (Presidential or Congressional elections) in your state, you must prove who you are.

This is required under Federal law. Your state may have separate ID requirements for voting by mail or in person.

These requirements are the same whether you register to vote in person or register to vote by mail.

REGISTERING TO VOTE IN PERSON OR BY MAIL​

• You must provide your driver’s license number or state ID number if you have one.
• If you do not have either of these IDs, you must provide the last four digits of your Social Security number if you have one.
• If you do not have a Social Security number, then leave that space blank on your registration form.”

I don’t know about you, but a drivers license or state ID isn’t the kind of documentation that you keep in a safe deposit box, but is exactly the kind of stuff you carry around. But YMMV, I guess. Maybe you keep yours tucked away. Me, I carry that stuff with me all the time.

Now, we could have National IDs like some countries but that concept is very much frowned upon in this country.

Actually in the last few years, as I posted earlier tonight, democrats have proposed that very thing.

And honestly, this really isn’t that complicated. There could be a dozen acceptable forms of ID, and it’s almost a certainty that a person would have ONE of them.

As to SS, next time someone asks you for ID, give them your SS card and look at their face.

Ha good point.

At the same time, don’t put your SS number on a federal or state form and watch the government deny your application or fine you.

Yet…. You can use your SS# to register to vote in lieu of a drivers license. Crazy, huh?

 

[Pogo]

A little crow (maybe more) apparently as of 11/7/2002, Shrub made it possible to use your SS# and even tha last 4 digits to register if the state verifies all of the rest of the information to be eligible to vote in a given jurisdiction. OK, that's nice, it still doesn't make you SS card an id, just a shortcut for the government to confirm your name and birthdate. And it still does nothing to make voter ID cards available.

But speaking of fraud, nothing says you have to be a US citizen to get a social security number, How does that work.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

A little crow (maybe more) apparently as of 11/7/2002, Shrub made it possible to use your SS# and even tha last 4 digits to register if the state verifies all of the rest of the information to be eligible to vote in a given jurisdiction. OK, that's nice, it still doesn't make you SS card an id, just a shortcut for the government to confirm your name and birthdate. And it still does nothing to make voter ID cards available.

But speaking of fraud, nothing says you have to be a US citizen to get a social security number, How does that work.

We could spend days talking about how screwed up the government is.

 

[Pogo]

OK, I think I see what is going on with SS# and registration, It gets around the proof of existence requirements that accompanied older registration requirements. If a SS# with the same name exists then all you need to demonstrate is that you meet all of the other requirements such as residency, citizenship etc.
However, it is still not an ID for voting purposes, In fact it is useless because due to the limitations of requiring disclosure of SS #s and privacy, I have no way of using your SS# to identify you when you are at the polling station. SS#s are not part of the registration data even if they are part of thief information collected to register in the first place.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

It’s not just that it’s part of the info they collect. They literally use it IN LIEU OF a drivers license or state issued ID, in order to register to vote.

That is, you do NOT have a DL or state issued ID, you can register to vote with your name, address, and SS#. It literally acts as a way to identify you as being YOU.

Again:

REGISTERING TO VOTE IN PERSON OR BY MAIL​

• You must provide your driver’s license number or state ID number if you have one.
• If you do not have either of these IDs, you must provide the last four digits of your Social Security number if you have one.
• If you do not have a Social Security number, then leave that space blank on your registration form.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I think he has a better chance of being the nominee than Trump does.

It’s tempting to believe DeSantis is a cynical, old school, Dixiecrat using bigotry to rile up the base.

But I guess we have to proceed assuming he sincerely believes all that crazy stuff.

The bigger problem will be trying to convince the U.S. public that "elections" even MEAN ANYTHING anymore.

 

[LifeIn]

But hen I’m back to my question: how many people are disenfranchised by voter ID laws?

How much in-person voter fraud is there that voter ID laws are needed?

How can motivation be a good suggestion if you told me earlier in this conversation that I can’t cite that because it’s racist?

I was referring to the situation where someone claims that a particular race is inherently indifferent to elections. Perhaps that is not the kind of situation you meant so it might not apply to your claim.

Where did you get the idea that I don’t want you to answer it?

Because you have hidden from me the details that might enable me to analyze the particulars and answer the question. I am reasonably confident I could do that if I knew what state you are talking about. I live in Minnesota. I'm not afraid that disclosing my state is any risk to my privacy.

I’ve asked several times and given you several chances to share your views. You’ve chosen not to.

Telling me what state you are talking about would be giving me a chance.

No, I mean like 1996. 30 years after the civil rights movement.

Marginalized people, not just blacks, had difficulty getting time off from work to vote and were discouraged by long lines and wait times at under-resourced polling places, for one.

You’re begging the question. I didn’t suggest that it is actually hard, or that there’s a systemic issue. You brought that to the table. I don’t think it’s harder for blacks to get IDs than whites.

Not by race, but by social status. The well-connected have the time and the resources to jump through the hoops to get the proper ID. Those not in that social class may not.

We don’t need photo IDs. I never suggested that. Just some form of ID. It’s not hard at all to put this system in place. In fact, in recent years, democrats have suggested doing this.

If voter ID's are supposed to prevent voter fraud, what good is an ID without a photo? What is the poll worker supposed to do? He can check the rolls to see if that name is on the rolls and whether that person has voted already. That's all. But you know what else serves the same purpose? A simple signature. The poll worker can check exactly the same two things - is this person on the rolls and has this person already voted? What additional security purpose is served by an ID without a photo? That is probably why the GOP probably won't go along with ID's without photos, as the article you cited suggests.

Right but who can live in this country reasonably without SOME form of ID?

People in nursing homes, for one. But I think you are forgetting that state voter ID requirements are for very specific forms of ID. They will not take just any form of ID. So even though almost everyone has SOME form of ID, many of those do not have ACCEPTABLE forms of ID for voting. It certainly would help if those states that wanted to require voter ID at least allowed a wider range of IDs that are easier to get.

I love these totally fictional scenarios. There is this incredible thing called the internet or US postal service that can be used to get an ID.

Most voter ID's are photo IDs and require that you appear in person with suitable supporting data. You can't just send in a selfie and expect them to mail you a voter ID. That would not add any security at all.

Sure. Of course. But this is suuuuuuuch a tiny percentage of people, right?

Not if you happen to be in that group.

Well I’ve never said we NEED voter ID. You’ve made that up in your fertile imagination.

Well, if we don't need it, why bother making people show it?

But I did ask this question of my local politicians - Democrats - whose party implemented ID laws in my state. And I told you how they answered it: because it helps make sure that when someone comes in to vote claiming to be Joe Smith, that it’s actually Joe Smith.

I can't comment on why some unnamed politician in a person conversation with you gave you a particular answer.

Here’s how it actually works in my town. I show up at the polling place. I go to the table, and they ask for my name, address, and ID. I tell them who I am, where I live, and show them my drivers license. They look at it, look at me, then cross my name off their list, so that they know that I’ve been there, and that nobody else can come and claim to be me.

They could do the same thing with you giving the same information, where you live, etc. and simply signing you name. That would work too, and it does not require that you have a driver's license.

Also: how many people have been disenfranchised by voter ID laws? Can you give me an actual number +/- 1,000, with documentation?

How many fraudulent votes have been cast due to not having a voter ID?

I figure since you’re wanting me to quantify the amount of voter ID fraud you can at least quantify the amount of disenfranchisement that comes from voter ID laws.

I asked first.

 

[glenlogie]

How much in-person voter fraud is there that voter ID laws are needed?




I was referring to the situation where someone claims that a particular race is inherently indifferent to elections. Perhaps that is not the kind of situation you meant so it might not apply to your claim.



Because you have hidden from me the details that might enable me to analyze the particulars and answer the question. I am reasonably confident I could do that if I knew what state you are talking about. I live in Minnesota. I'm not afraid that disclosing my state is any risk to my privacy.



Telling me what state you are talking about would be giving me a chance.


Marginalized people, not just blacks, had difficulty getting time off from work to vote and were discouraged by long lines and wait times at under-resourced polling places, for one.


Not by race, but by social status. The well-connected have the time and the resources to jump through the hoops to get the proper ID. Those not in that social class may not.


If voter ID's are supposed to prevent voter fraud, what good is an ID without a photo? What is the poll worker supposed to do? He can check the rolls to see if that name is on the rolls and whether that person has voted already. That's all. But you know what else serves the same purpose? A simple signature. The poll worker can check exactly the same two things - is this person on the rolls and has this person already voted? What additional security purpose is served by an ID without a photo? That is probably why the GOP probably won't go along with ID's without photos, as the article you cited suggests.


People in nursing homes, for one. But I think you are forgetting that state voter ID requirements are for very specific forms of ID. They will not take just any form of ID. So even though almost everyone has SOME form of ID, many of those do not have ACCEPTABLE forms of ID for voting. It certainly would help if those states that wanted to require voter ID at least allowed a wider range of IDs that are easier to get.




Most voter ID's are photo IDs and require that you appear in person with suitable supporting data. You can't just send in a selfie and expect them to mail you a voter ID. That would not add any security at all.


Not if you happen to be in that group.


Well, if we don't need it, why bother making people show it?


I can't comment on why some unnamed politician in a person conversation with you gave you a particular answer.


They could do the same thing with you giving the same information, where you live, etc. and simply signing you name. That would work too, and it does not require that you have a driver's license.




How many fraudulent votes have been cast due to not having a voter ID?


I asked first.

Have you found any examples of people who live 150 miles from a government office?

 

[Reformedguy]

Policies?

He signed a draconian 6-week ban on abortion which will hurt him in the general.
He initiated a ridiculous war against Disney, the largest employer in the state and the epitome of squeaky-clean.
He is on board with book bans and remaking higher education to reflect RW views.
He fired an ELECTED prosecutor.
He expanded the proliferation of guns in the state.
He approves of gerrymandering.
He has made it clear he is not interested in compromise or bipartisanship, derisively referring to Dems as "woke".

Good. All the more reason to vote for him.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

How much in-person voter fraud is there that voter ID laws are needed?

I've already answered this: I don't know. But apparently it's a big enough concern that my state's democratic leadership felt the need to have people show their IDs when going in to vote, because they wanted to make sure that when a guy showed up claiming to be Joe Smith, it really WAS Joe Smith. So hey, maybe these Democrats are racist or just idiots. What's your guess?

I was referring to the situation where someone claims that a particular race is inherently indifferent to elections. Perhaps that is not the kind of situation you meant so it might not apply to your claim.

Who said that? It's clear that in US elections, blacks have shown up at the polls in different rates, and motivation to vote has been the driving factor, something to which you agreed. It's understandable that blacks would turn out to vote in smaller percentages than whites if the candidates are two more old white establishment people.

Because you have hidden from me the details that might enable me to analyze the particulars and answer the question. I am reasonably confident I could do that if I knew what state you are talking about. I live in Minnesota. I'm not afraid that disclosing my state is any risk to my privacy.



Telling me what state you are talking about would be giving me a chance.

Well I'm not going to do that, so I'm asking you to speculate. It's a fair thing to ask. I mean, you've been speculating a TON in this discussion about why voting patterns are the way they are, so it's not like you have some principled opposition to speculation. I'm asking you to hypothesize (if you prefer that term more than speculate). Given the information I've given you - that I live in a heavily liberal state, where Ds outnumber Rs considerably, and where Ds have implemented voter ID requirements, and where D politicians I have asked have said it's to make sure that Joe Smith really is Joe Smith when coming in to vote (and I've even described how the process works in my town) - what do you hypothesize is the reason why Democrats passed these requirements?

Marginalized people, not just blacks, had difficulty getting time off from work to vote and were discouraged by long lines and wait times at under-resourced polling places, for one.

Do you have evidence that a black employee has a harder time getting time off work to vote as compared to a white employee? Where is this data found?

Discouraged by long lines? So it's not an issue that they CAN'T vote; it's an issue that they don't feel like waiting a little longer? That speaks to motivation, yes? Nobody is denying them the right to vote in that case. It's just like...dude, to exercise your right to vote, you might have to be a little patient. I'm not saying that there aren't ways to improve the in-person voting experience, because clearly there are. We do want to make this as smooth as possible, but guess what? Sometimes life isn't that way. Ever seen the line at the frigging DMV? You sometimes wait HOURS there, but people do it because they need something done. Every single day this happens, with hundreds and hundreds of people, at virtually every DMV location. It sucks, but you do it. But no, I won't cast my vote because the line is long?

No, that just exposes the real issue: People don't vote because they aren't motivated to vote. Maybe they hate all the candidates. Maybe they don't feel like any of the candidates represents them. Maybe they feel like their vote doesn't even make a difference. That last one is how I feel about presidential voting in my state. It ALWAYS skews HEAVILY Democratic. So if I'm a Dem, it's like, one more vote for Biden isn't gonna make any difference - dude is gonna win easily. But at least in that case it would be like "hey, at least I'm voting for the winner!". But if I'm a Republican, it's like, why the F am I even bothering here? We know the outcome and my candidate is gonna get smoked in my state...they have no chance whatsoever. So why go wait in line to vote in a meaningless election?

You are exposing, with each post, that it is voter MOTIVATION that's the main issue.

Not by race, but by social status. The well-connected have the time and the resources to jump through the hoops to get the proper ID. Those not in that social class may not.

How many "hoops" are there to procure a government-issued ID? Serious question. It's like...super easy. And it wasn't that hard back then. People were just not motivated to do it.

If voter ID's are supposed to prevent voter fraud, what good is an ID without a photo? What is the poll worker supposed to do? He can check the rolls to see if that name is on the rolls and whether that person has voted already. That's all. But you know what else serves the same purpose? A simple signature. The poll worker can check exactly the same two things - is this person on the rolls and has this person already voted? What additional security purpose is served by an ID without a photo? That is probably why the GOP probably won't go along with ID's without photos, as the article you cited suggests.

I'm cool with a signature that matches a signature on file. But then they have to have your signature on file to compare it to. Easier to commit fraud than a photo ID, but hey, we also know that photo IDs can be faked. There is no foolproof system. The whole idea though is just to do a better job making sure that voters are who they say they are.

People in nursing homes, for one. But I think you are forgetting that state voter ID requirements are for very specific forms of ID. They will not take just any form of ID. So even though almost everyone has SOME form of ID, many of those do not have ACCEPTABLE forms of ID for voting. It certainly would help if those states that wanted to require voter ID at least allowed a wider range of IDs that are easier to get.

Yeah, I don't love the state regulations that require specific IDs, unless the state is going to help people get those. I'm with you on that.

But...people flying need to give specific forms of ID. And when registering to vote, people need specific forms of ID. So it's not CRAZY.

Most voter ID's are photo IDs and require that you appear in person with suitable supporting data. You can't just send in a selfie and expect them to mail you a voter ID. That would not add any security at all.

In your state you need either a driver's license or a state-issued ID in order to register to vote. Or, if you don't have that, you just sign up using the last four digits of your SS number. Now how do you get a driver's license or state-issued ID? Well, a driver's license...you've gotta earn that and go to the DMV. I don't know how you get a state-issued ID in Minnesota. (frankly, I don't even know what one looks like)

Not if you happen to be in that group.

Doesn't change the math, that it's a tiny percentage of people. It just feels HUGE if you're one of that tiny percentage, for obvious reasons.

Well, if we don't need it, why bother making people show it?

Well, back to the answer my Democrat politician acquaintance gave me: to make sure that Joe Smith is really Joe Smith when the guy comes in to vote. Did you miss that part? Again, a Democrat said that to me, not a Republican.

I can't comment on why some unnamed politician in a person conversation with you gave you a particular answer.

Sure you can. You've commented on a million things in this discussion.

They could do the same thing with you giving the same information, where you live, etc. and simply signing you name. That would work too, and it does not require that you have a driver's license.

Sure, as long as the signature matched a signature on file. That could serve as a form of ID. Or you could bring in an electric bill or an envelope mailed to you from the Social Security office (like people in nursing homes would get). I'm fine with those things.

How many fraudulent votes have been cast due to not having a voter ID?

I've already answered: I don't know. Nobody knows.

I asked first.

And I've answered it a half dozen times now. I don't know. That's the answer.

Now, you answer my question. How many people have been disenfranchised by voter ID laws?

 

[LifeIn]

Well I'm not going to do that, so I'm asking you to speculate. It's a fair thing to ask

OK, I will speculate. The Democrats who told you why they want voter ID were just telling you personally what they thought you wanted to hear. And if they voted for it, it was in exchange for the GOP concession on some other priority. Deals happen all the time in politics. Sometimes you have to vote on what you don't particularly believe in, but do so in order to attain some more important cooperation on another bill. It could also be that the particular voter ID bill that they voted for was very liberal in allowing all sorts of ID, including maybe student IDs and Veterans Affairs IDs. That would not be so distasteful to a Democrat.