Yes or no?
Did God know before the world began WHO WOULD BELIEVE, and WHO WOULD NOT BELIEVE?????
- Thread starter Howie
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Sketo
Well-known member
Thanks
Sketo
Well-known member
There is a difference between merely presenting Christ crucified to someone who perceives it as “folly” and God revealing Christ crucified to someone such that it becomes to them something other than “folly”.
“Saving faith” is a gift clearly taught in the Bible. Most miss it because they are to busy focusing on man that they are blind to this part of the gift of Grace.
The revealing of Christ crucified as “the power and wisdom of God” instead of “folly” is the gift of Grace that was given only to those who now believe! That is the reason they believe. That is the reason it’s not “folly” to them.
“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1Co 1:18)
“but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1Co 1:23-24)
This is why a few verses later scripture teaches that “because of God you are in Christ”. This is how God places you in Christ. Your perception of Christ crucified is the result of Gods work IN you…
“And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,” (1Co 1:30)
This is the whole point of the entire package of you being saved, including your “faith”, being called a gift because it all was by Grace alone so that no one may boast.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith.
And this is not your own doing;
it is the gift of God,
not a result of works,
so that no one may boast.”
(Eph 2:8-9)
Your trusting God’s word is the result of God’s work in you that revealed Christ crucified as other than foolishness. This is how God saves, in the timeline of creation, those he purposed for salvation before the foundation of the world.
This is not the purpose for every individual that God creates. Pharaoh is a prime example of Gods purpose never intending him to be saved. The result, of Pharaohs “purpose” in creation, was that he would be damned in the end.
Thank God if you have received the Gift of perceiving Christ crucified as the power and wisdom, instead of foolishness, because the fact is God’s “purpose” for creating you could have been similar to that of Pharaoh’s with the same end result!
Can you explain the difference in meaning between these two statements…
For by faith you have been saved through grace.
vs
For by grace you have been saved through faith.
?
Not a single word there about the gift of saving faith
Salvation/eternal life is the gift
confirmed
Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sketo
Well-known member
The Bible is clear that some perceive Christ crucified as foolishness and others perceive Christ crucified as power and wisdom. The Bible is also clear as to what makes the difference in these two perceptions of Christ…
“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1Co 1:18)
Why would you say this is not part of the gift?
“And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,” (1Co 1:30)
I assume that Christ Jesus is not foolishness to you but even though scripture clearly states this perception is “because of him” you would say it is by some other means. That is sad.
You, as well as I, were at one time perishing but now you are being saved so… If not “because of him” then how did Christ become to you “power and wisdom of God” instead of “foolishness”? If not “because of him” then how are you now “in Christ Jesus”?
Because the bible never says faith is a gift
because faith is not a substance that can be transfered , installed , infused in another
because faith cannot be exercised on behalf of another
because It is man who is told to believe
because It is man who is said to believe
because man is judged based on whether he believes or not
As for the rest of what you say faith would be useless had God not sent Christ to the cross
recognizing that the bible assigns to man the responsibility to believe does not translate to saving your self or deny you were saved because of him as you try to make it seem
Sketo
Well-known member
Can you explain how someone perishing, who currently “believes” the preaching of Christ Crucified is foolishness, comes to “believe” the preaching of Christ Crucified is the power and wisdom of God instead?
Is this by God’s doing… or man’s own doing?
If we accept God at his word? Yes. Revelation 13:8
Sketo
Well-known member
Then you would agree that you can not simply “transfer”, “install”, or “infuse” the “non-substance” faith into something you currently believe is foolishness and it somehow magically changes your belief into power and wisdom of God.
Faith is a response to your perception of Christ not a means to change your perception of Christ.
If someone tells me that a red party balloon ? will get me safely to the ground if I hold onto it as I jump out of the plain from 1000ft I can not simply “transfer”, “install”, or “infuse” my non-substance “faith” from the safety of the plain into the “foolishness” of the red party balloon ?…
Theo1689
Well-known member
Tom missed that?
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
Sketo, excellent question. I'm a Calvinist, the Bible says very clearly that God chose the elect. I leave your question to Arminians. They won't answer it at all. Watch!
They'll hem and haw because they just want to hold onto Pelagian error.
People can only act from their nature.
I believe the Bible. But the Bible doesn't tell us why he chooses some and not others. We see darkly on this issue. Perhaps we will know when we come face-to-face with Him.
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
Welcome Miriam!
Thank you Beloved Daughter.?
That would be the Calvinist problem for it is the Calvinist who speaks of the gift of (saving) faith
Ones perception may be changed by reason, logic or circumstance and the will can determine then to trust in the new perception
Sketo
Well-known member
I agree. Keep in mind that all non-Calvinists, and even some Calvinists, make the same mistake of assuming God “chooses” individuates in the timeline of creation based on something they achieved. This is not biblical.
Remember God made everything for its purpose which means the purpose was “chosen” before the foundation of the world…
“The LORD has made everything for its purpose,… (Pro 16:4a)
… This means every -thing- was created for a purpose to be revealed in the timeline of creation. This means that your purpose, and my purpose, is being revealed right now at this time moment by moment. Everything has meaning because God made it with meaning!
Pharaoh’s purpose was revealed in his time (determined by God)…
“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”” (Rom 9:17)
…even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4b)
Pharaoh’s purpose was determined by God before he made him, and God made Pharaoh and raised him up to reveal that purpose in time. Pharaoh ultimately perished as the result of Gods “chosen” purpose for him. Pharaoh’s purpose was never to be saved. Pharaoh’s evil and disobedience had meaning.
The point is God “chose” all of us for a purpose, before the foundation, to be revealed in his timeline of creation, but only some were “chosen” for a purpose that results in “being saved”…
“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love” (Eph 1:4)
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” (2Ti 1:9)
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (Rom 9:22-24)
Thank God if this is the result of Gods purpose for you because your purpose could have had the same result as Pharaoh.
I agree. In my experience they will not directly answer. They will only deflect.
Exactly. They reject the clear teaching that…
“by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners…” (Rom 5:19)
They may deny this and attempt to erroneously say that the many become sinners by some other means but then they would have to explain…
“The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.” (Psa 58:3)
They have zero justification for their claims.
True the Bible would be a Quintillion pages if it gave a reason for every individuals “purpose for being made”. You are correct the Bible does not tell us why you or I specifically were “chosen” but that does not mean he does not reveal why in time. Remember Pharaoh is one biblical example that was revealed in time. Also another example was the disciples individual “chosen” purpose was revealed in time. We, specifically, are not in the Bible but our purpose is being revealed in time just the same.
“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2Th 2:13)
May this be God’s purpose for making you.
Sketo
Well-known member
It sounds more like a “freewill” problem to me because, as you now openly admit above, your “will” does not have the ability to “freely” change your perception of the presentation of Christ crucified from “foolishness” to the power and wisdom of God!
You now admit that for those who are presented Christ crucified and perceive it as folly… neither that presentation, nor their will, is sufficient to bring them to the point of faith. They require something external from the will and the gospel presentation to get them to the point where they can “then” trust in the new perception!
This is not a problem for Calvinism… it actually supports Calvinism!