Christian's have the promise of eternal life and possessing that promise is conditional upon how the Christian lives, therefore the Christian can lose that promise by turning to live unfaithfully to the Lord.
Does John 17:12 imply that Judas lost his salvation
- Thread starter valtteri21
- Start date
Jesus said who had unconditional eternal life and could never be condemned no matter how they lived?
Dizerner
Well-known member
Or, we could just respect the conditions that are clearly stated alongside the promises.
You know, instead of throwing the CONDITIONAL verses away.
If tell you "I will give you a million dollars IF you feed my cat," my promise is not "unreliable" because it has a condition attached.
Theo1689
Well-known member
What "CONDITIONAL verses" have we allegedly "thrown away"?
You haven't presented any.
But proper Biblical interpretation involves accepting ALL verses, not just "your" verses.
Sorry, I can't find that verse in Scripture.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
The Verse I am using says...
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24 NIV
John 5:24
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Of course, I endorse using All Verses to form a Systematic Theology...
Notice the verse puts two CONDITIONS of hearing and believing upon having eternal life:The Verse I am using says...
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24 NIV
John 5:24
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.john.bible
Of course, I endorse using All Verses to form a Systematic Theology...
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,..."
Both verbs hear and believe are present tense showing an action that is currently ongoing and sustained. Meaning if one quits hearing and believing he will not have eternal life. Therefore gaining initial possession of the promise of eternal life is CONDITIONAL upon hearing and believing and maintaining that promise is CONDITIONAL upon continuing to hear and believe.
If it makes sense that one must first conditionally hear and believe to initially possess that promise then it only makes sense one must conditionally keep on hearing and believing to keep on possessing that promise.
Theo1689
Well-known member
The Verse I am using says...
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24 NIV
John 5:24
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Of course, I endorse using All Verses to form a Systematic Theology...
There is also Rom 8, "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", from inspired Scripture.
"Crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24).
Sounds like a one-way direction to me.
Or do people think you can "pass from death into life", and then cross back over to death, and then perhaps cross over to life again?
ReverendRV
Well-known member
And we will Persevere by the Grace of God...
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Look! You've formed a Systematic Theology...
Those who conditionally become believing Christians and faithfully continue being faith Christians are preserved but those who become unfaithful are not preserved.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
I disagree. A Born Again Saint will always be carried on the shoulders of Christ home with him...
Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus"
Note the condition, no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST. Becoming unfaithful and falling from Christ one can be condemned. The phrase "in Christ" is common in the NT, it puts CONDITIONS upon the blessings Christ has to give for one must be in Christ and continue to be in Christ to receive those blessings.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
No verse gives such an unconditional guarantee.
Christians are commanded;
-to keep yourselves in the love of God, Jude 1
-Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; 2 Cor 13:5
-give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Pet 1:10
The responsibility has been put upon the Christian to keep himself in a saved state, that onus has not been put upon God.
No verse teaches the unconditional guarantee of once in Christ, always in Christ no matter how the Christian lives.
Those at the church in Ephesus had been sealed (Eph 1:13) but some years later (Rev 2:1ff) they had left Christ and were fallen and are being given a threat to repent or have the church there at Ephesus removed, no longer acknowledge by God has being His church.
Theo1689
Well-known member
How can I "notice" something that doesn't exist?
Where do you see the word, "condition" in that verse?
You are ignoring the distinction between grammatical "active" tense, and experiential "activity". Yes, we "hear", it is something we do. But it is not something under our control that we can "choose" to hear or not hear something. Whether we can hear or not depends on God, not us.
There is also the added complication that the Greek word, "akouo" can either mean "hear" (physical sounds/words), or "understand".
As for "believing", while it is common for people to ASSUME that believing is something we can "choose" to do or not, the Biblical truth is that if God gives someone faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc.), then they WILL believe. And if God doesn't give them faith, then they can't. This is what Jesus taught:
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
Notice that it does NOT say, "you are not my sheep BECAUSE you do not believe".
It says, "You do not believe BECAUSE you are not among my sheep".
If you are not Christ's sheep, you cannot believe.
Luke similarly limits those who are able to believe:
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
One of the problems here is that your STARTING premise is that we "can lose our salvation". So you don't care what Scripture teaches. You've already decided what you WANT to believe, so all you're doing now is looking for "verses" to support your a priori belief, where you PROJECT the word "conditional" all over the place.
I can't find anywhere in Scripture which speaks about "quits hearing and believing".
You are simply engaging in assumption after assumption to try to justify your initial assumption that "one can lose their salvation".
Jesus says that if one believes they HAVE eternal life.
If one can "lose" it, then they never had "eternal life" in the first place.
It also makes salvation dependent on man, rather than God.
But Christ is our SHEPHERD, not merely our "road sign".
That's only because you ASSUME that hearing and believing are controlled by man, and not by God.
This is nothing but unBiblical rationalization.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Those that left us never were of us...
Theo1689
Well-known member
Where does the Bible teach that being "in Christ" is something that MAN controls, rather than God controlling?
1Cor. 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
We are in Christ because of GOD, not because of ourselves.
G
guest1
Guest
Judas was called , chosen and elect as an Apostle / Disciple just the same as the others and was called on of the 12and performed the same miracles as the others did when they were sent out in twos . He could only cast our demons by the power of the Holy Spirit otherwise it makes Jesus a liar . The strongman parable and the house divided against itself makes that crystal clear .
hope this helps !!!
hope this helps !!!
Theo1689
Well-known member
Where does the Bible record Judas "performing miracles"?
Where does the Bible record Judas "casting out demons"?