Hey, A&E, you want to have kids like I tolds you to?....first you must sin and disobey me.

[Aaron32]

There is no commandment to "cleave".....the bible only says "24 For this reason a man will"

This only strengthens the point that God, our Creator, knew exactly what was going to happen in the garden of Eden.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

God knew Adam would not leave Eve any more than he could expect Adam to cut his own leg off.

Christians generally don't believe in pre-mortality. But it's worth asking, if men, as spirits, knew how hard mortality was going to be, would they have chosen it of their own free will and choice? The same question could be posed in contemplating marriage, or having kids.
My guess is that they probably wouldn't. If they did it would be a major act of faith IMO. God had to set up a scenario so that Adam would choose life of humanity, even at the expense of his own, not even knowing of the backup plan at the time he made the choice.

The bible also doesn't say Adam had to first sin before he could via the fall...cleave to his wife.....The Satanic mormon belief does.

Well, if you understand how biology works there is something to said about being aware of nakedness and sexual arousal.
But hey, apparently you have all the answers somewhere of how everything worked prior to the fall that make you right and me wrong. When you're willing to share your source please let me know. In the meantime, I'm just continue to remind you that your making a the fallacy of an argument from absence.

 

[CrowCross]

I've already talked about the significance of "must" verses "shall".
Violation of "must" implies rebellion, "shall" does not.

Semantics...Both are sin concerning the eating from the tree of lnowledge of good and evil... Both instances are against Gods will.

But you like Satan are saying.......'Did God really say"....

 

[Aaron32]

As pointed out Adam and Eve did posses a certain level of knowing about good and evil...just as we do today.

I disagree. This can only be true if we believe life is inherently "good" and death is inherently "bad".
The decision wasn't on the dynamic of "good" or "bad", it was based on "life" or "death" and Satan successfully beguiled Eve to overcome that concern. Adam's fall was actually a selfless act. What percent of men currently give up their lives for their wives?

We also must keep in mind possesing the knowledge is not the same as "experiencing".
I provided you with an example of the flame on a stove.....as children they know touching the flame will burn them. They have that knowledge.....but it isn't until they actually get burnt by the flame do they experience it.

I agree. I believe that only strengthens my argument, and the point made in 2 Nephi.

In Gen 3:7 we are told of the instant knowledge that they gained....they now experienced the evil of it....as they knew it wasn't good. Gen 3:10 clearly indicates their experiance and the enhanced knowledge...as they were afraid and hid.

It's reality that "opposition in all things" is necessary. It's the misery man experienced that allows men to find joy in their salvation and living with God. It doesn't take the bible to realize that truth.
"You never know what you had until you lost it"
"Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

 

[CrowCross]

And given the evangelical reasoning of today, Abraham's friends would have Abraham doubt God was talking to him at all, because God already said murder was wrong, and God doesn't teach anything contrary to what he already told prior prophets.

So, once again you are saying Abraham was wrong for doing what God told him to do.
With all due respect 32....you're digging a deeper Satanic hole.

Abraham knew his son would not die...as the bible informs us in Gen 22:5. (then again you already knew that)

 

[CrowCross]

Christians generally don't believe in pre-mortality. But it's worth asking, if men, as spirits, knew how hard mortality was going to be, would they have chosen it of their own free will and choice?

Where does the bible tell us pre-mortal people knew how hard it would be?

Once again you use speculation presented as biblical truth to address an issue.

 

[Aaron32]

Semantics...

Words have meaning. If translations don't matter, why are their so many?

Both are sin concerning the eating from the tree of lnowledge of good and evil... Both instances are against Gods will.

Ok. If you're claim is that God is not all knowing, and God left everything in the hands of Adam so that he could break stuff, thus to give Adam all the blame for our fallen world, then what was "God's will" and overall objective when he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? Should God have known better?

But you like Satan are saying.......'Did God really say"....

Why, because I choose to give Adam the benefit of the doubt?
Comdemn him all you want, but you're really condemning yourself, because you are of the same nature.

 

[Aaron32]

So, once again you are saying Abraham was wrong for doing what God told him to do.
With all due respect 32....you're digging a deeper Satanic hole.

No, I wasn't saying that at all. I was simply applying the flawed Evangelical reasoning against Abraham's reasoning and actions.

Abraham knew his son would not die...as the bible informs us in Gen 22:5. (then again you already knew that)

How in the world are arriving to the conclusion that Abraham would not die out of:
"5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."
???
He basically told Issac to say with the donkey while Abraham prepared the altar.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, if you understand how biology works there is something to said about being aware of nakedness and sexual arousal.

Is mormon sexuality ans arousal based totally on being sexually stimulated by nakedness?

But hey, apparently you have all the answers somewhere of how everything worked prior to the fall that make you right and me wrong. When you're willing to share your source please let me know. In the meantime, I'm just continue to remind you that your making a the fallacy of an argument from absence.

You claim I say I have all the answers for how everything worked pre-fall? Seriously?
YOU are the one claiming that Adam and Eve couldn't have sexual relations in a pre-fallen state.

There's more to the concept than the "mormon" Adam saying..."look at you Eve...you have boobies...see how aroused I am now?..Lets have sex".

 

[Aaron32]

Where does the bible tell us pre-mortal people knew how hard it would be?

It doesn't. It was written for lurkers who are open to understand a greater understanding.

Once again you use speculation presented as biblical truth to address an issue.

I'm not the one basing my reasoning from an argument from absence, and then declaring my opposition satanic based off my speculation. *smh*
Matt 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged". By calling me Satanic, you're really only describing yourself. I pray that your heart will be changed to see the best of people and give people the benefit of the doubt. (It's called charity - see 1 Cor 13) If you're so concerned about obedience then maybe you shouldn't manifest your works of the flesh:
Gal 5:19-20 Now the works of the flesh are ...hatred, variance,...wrath, strife...

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

 

[Aaron32]

Is mormon sexuality ans arousal based totally on being sexually stimulated by nakedness?

Not totally, but it is a factor. Are you saying that Mormons are weird in that respect or something?

You claim I say I have all the answers for how everything worked pre-fall? Seriously?

If anyone that make a claims contrary to your beliefs is "Satanic", so clearly, to feel so strongly you must have a certainty that isn't common knowledge.

YOU are the one claiming that Adam and Eve couldn't have sexual relations in a pre-fallen state.

Well, the Book of Mormon does...yes.

There's more to the concept than the "mormon" Adam saying..."look at you Eve...you have boobies...see how aroused I am now?..Lets have sex".

Good one, my friend. If you want to say sexual arousal occurs absent the concept of nakedness, I'll simply let you own that and let lurkers make determinations of themselves. I don't see anything good coming out of pursuing that topic.

 

[CrowCross]

t's reality that "opposition in all things" is necessary. It's the misery man experienced that allows men to find joy in their salvation and living with God. It doesn't take the bible to realize that truth.

You are presenting a concept from the other side of the fall....failing to realize the joy man would have had and continued to have if there was no fall and the need for redemption.

Of course there is joy in redemption...but if there was no Satanic inspired fall that the mormons champion as a good thing there would be no need for the loss of the joy of walking with God that the mormons believed they can recoup via their own merit as part of the process that forces God to redeem them.

"You never know what you had until you lost it"
"Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

Sounds like you have more trust in mans wisdom that God wisdom. Perhaps we should all burn our fingers in the stove flame...feel the misery....knowing that when we heal the absense of the nonburning feeling in the finger...the nonburning feeling in the finger that we lost when we were exposed to the pain caused by the flame....should fill us with great joy.

 

[CrowCross]

Ok. If you're claim is that God is not all knowing, and God left everything in the hands of Adam so that he could break stuff, thus to give Adam all the blame for our fallen world, then what was "God's will" and overall objective when he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? Should God have known better?

I don't have that answer....but you seem to think it was Gods will for Adam and Eve to disobey Him.

It's like you are saying God told Satan to go fool them....as that would be a good thing.....because now Adam could realize Eve had boobies and want to have sex with her and be fruitful and multiply.

 

[CrowCross]

I said..."YOU are the one claiming that Adam and Eve couldn't have sexual relations in a pre-fallen state."
You replied back with...

Well, the Book of Mormon does...yes.

The book of mormon isn't biblical. Considering your mormon based opinion is that the fall was a good thing....God wanted Adam and Eve sin so Adam could see Eve's boobies...get aroused and then be fruitful and multiple....show how the Book of Mormon is Satanic.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm not the one basing my reasoning from an argument from absence, and then declaring my opposition satanic based off my speculation. *smh*

Your theology is based upon disobying God (a) so you can have (b) as a good thing. That mormon based theology is Satanic.

 

[Aaron32]

You are presenting a concept from the other side of the fall....failing to realize the joy man would have had and continued to have if there was no fall and the need for redemption.

Ok. So what are textual evidence that Adam and Eve were experiencing and/or "would have had" joy prior to the fall?

Of course there is joy in redemption...but if there was no...fall...there would be no need for the loss of the joy of walking with God...

Please answer question above. You maybe right, but if we're strictly using biblical text, you have to admit that the mormon position is plausible.

...that the mormons believed they can recoup via their own merit as part of the process that forces God to redeem them.

This is off-topic, we could start a separate thread on this if you want, but I'm just declaring this false.

Sounds like you have more trust in mans wisdom that God wisdom.

No, that would be the case, if I rejected my beliefs on your arguments from absence.
I simply stated truisms observable from life experience.

Perhaps we should all burn our fingers in the stove flame...feel the misery....knowing that when we heal the absense of the nonburning feeling in the finger...the nonburning feeling in the finger that we lost when we were exposed to the pain caused by the flame....should fill us with great joy.

Or we can just learn from the experience from others: the nature of man, sin, knowledge, marriage, and God.
Thankfully, because of Adam's experience, we don't have to do it ourselves.
Adam didn't have the knowledge we have, so I think it's unfair to consider him Satanic.

 

[Aaron32]

I don't have that answer....but you seem to think it was Gods will for Adam and Eve to disobey Him.

Yes. I do. I think God has a plan and knows the end from the beginning.

It's like you are saying God told Satan to go fool them....

No, Satan chose to make that choice, because that is Satan's nature.

as that would be a good thing.....because now Adam could realize Eve had boobies and want to have sex with her and be fruitful and multiply.

Lol! Yes. So that man may be. And men are, that they might have joy. That is what the BoM is saying.

 

[Aaron32]

I said..."YOU are the one claiming that Adam and Eve couldn't have sexual relations in a pre-fallen state."
You replied back with...

Yes, I follow my religion, I am not originating these beliefs myself.

The book of mormon isn't biblical.

I disagree. If you'd like to expound on this on anther thread I'll happily engage in that conversation.

Considering your mormon based opinion is that the fall was a good thing....God wanted Adam and Eve sin so Adam could see Eve's boobies...get aroused and then be fruitful and multiple....show how the Book of Mormon is Satanic.

Little children are the kingdom of heaven. Little children can see each other naked and think nothing of it.
Then puberty happens....and then different things happen when men see naked women.
Do I really have to spell this out for you? I'm assuming your parents gave you the sex talk, right? Lol!
Maybe you'd like to go into further explanation on how sexual arousal occurs absent of lust.

 

[Aaron32]

Your theology is based upon disobying God (a) so you can have (b) as a good thing. That mormon based theology is Satanic.

As stated before, Adam's behavior isn't taught as a general model to follow. It's given to understand how Satan works, the nature of sin, etc.
Adam's fall however, was a good thing. Joy is found in righteousness. We can't know righteousness if we don't know wickedness and the misery that follows it.

 

[Janice Bower]

...
Gal 5:19-20 Now the works of the flesh are ...hatred, variance,...wrath, strife...

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Joseph Smith:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”


20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

Joseph Smith—History 1

Joseph Smith tells of his ancestry, family members, and their early abodes—An unusual excitement about religion prevails in western New York—He determines to seek wisdom as directed by James—The Father and the Son appear, and Joseph is called to his prophetic ministry. (Verses 1–20.)

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Gal 5:19-20 Now the works of the flesh are ...hatred, variance,...wrath, strife...

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

 

[CrowCross]

As stated before, Adam's behavior isn't taught as a general model to follow. It's given to understand how Satan works, the nature of sin, etc.
Adam's fall however, was a good thing. Joy is found in righteousness. We can't know righteousness if we don't know wickedness and the misery that follows it.

"Adam's fall however, was a good thing".... Did ya all catch that?

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Not so much of a good thing for them....Huh, Aaron32??? Yet another reason mormonism is demonic.