Hundredfold Martyrs

That dates the text to late 2nd or early 3rd century. And the heavenly witnesses reference has solid scholarship acceptance. For TNC, the “three witnesses” are not in Matthew 28:19.
There is no "heavenly witnesses reference", because there is no tres unum sunt (such was the later Tertullian formulation). There is just a reference to a Trinity in polytheistic terminology (as bearing individual witness) consistent with 1 John 5:7, which appears to be a fusion of Tertullian's thesis in Adversus Praxean and just such a Trinity couched in polytheistic terms.

"utique qui se disposuerit ad persequendum opus illorum angelorum sex, percipiet fructus tam praeclaros tres, patrem et fllium et spiritum sanctum,"

hoc est per os trium testium probari, id est per os patris et filii et Spiritus sancti confiteri, quod mel tribus litteris constat scribi; nam et fei quidem legimus tribus litteris statui. haec est amaritudo, quam uentri angelus sentiebat.
 
______________________________________________________________________________________
"There is ample indication that our writer resorts to paraphrase, rewording, or imaginative application of scriptural passages when it suits his purposes, as in the parable of the Talents, which becomes in his telling
more specifically a story about ten Talents, to provide a factor for multiplication"

Five Days of Creation? The Origin of an Unusual Exegesis (Fs.-Cyprian, De centesima 26)
by Philip Sellew
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Would you like to add the above to your blog, to set the record straight?

Sure, I placed it in my spot of:

Four Days of Creation (with url) on PBF
And I will point it out to TWOGIG.
 
There is a legitimate question for Hugh Houghton and Grantley Robert McDonald as to the omission in their books.
Yup. And the answer is because it's not an "allusion" to the Comma, nor a quotation of it.....despite the fact that a couple men in the entire world think that it is.

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You should study allusions in the New Testament variants, Ending of Mark, Pericope Adulterae, Acts 8:37, 1 Timothy 3:16 and dozens more.
Why? What has Acts 8:37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" got to do with anything? Just nonsense....
 
That dates the text to late 2nd or early 3rd century. And the heavenly witnesses reference has solid scholarship acceptance. For TNC, the “three witnesses” are not in Matthew 28:19.

No, your right "three witnesses" is not written in Matthew 28:19.

They are written here:

Deuteronomy 17:6 LXX
“upon two witnesses or
upon three witnesses.”

ἐπὶ δυσὶν μάρτυσιν ἢ ἐπὶ τρισὶν μάρτυσιν ἀποθανεῗται ὁ ἀποθνῄσκων οὐκ ἀποθανεῗται ἐφ᾽ ἑνὶ μάρτυρι

Deuteronomy 17:6 Clementine Vulgate

in ore duorum aut trium testium peribit qui interficietur nemo occidatur uno contra se dicente testimonium

Deuteronomy 19:15 Vetus Latina (Sabatia 1751, Page 363)

In duobus teftibus aut in tribus morietur. Moriens non morietur in uno teſte.

Deuteronomy 19:15 LXX
“at the mouth of two
and at the mouth of three witnesses.”

οὐκ ἐμμενεῗ μάρτυς εἷς μαρτυρῆσαι κατὰ ἀνθρώπου κατὰ πᾶσαν ἀδικίαν καὶ κατὰ πᾶν ἁμάρτημα καὶ κατὰ πᾶσαν ἁμαρτίαν ἣν ἂν ἁμάρτῃ ἐπὶ στόματος δύο μαρτύρων καὶ ἐπὶ στόματος τριῶν μαρτύρων σταθήσεται πᾶν ῥῆμα

Deuteronomy 19:15 Clementine Vulgate

non stabit testis unus contra aliquem quicquid illud peccati et facinoris fuerit sed in ore duorum aut trium testium stabit omne verbum

Deuteronomy 19:15 Vetus Latina (Sabatia 1751, Page 363)

Non manebit unus in teftificationem adversus hominem , fecundum omnem iniquitatem , et fecundum omne peccatum quodcunque peccatur : in ore duorum teftium aut trium ſtabit omnis fermo

Matthew 18:16
at the mouth of two witnesses or three.”


ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ἀκούσῃ, παράλαβε μετὰ σοῦ ἔτι ἕνα ἢ δύο, ἵνα ἐπὶ στόματος δύο μαρτύρων ἢ τριῶν σταθῇ πᾶν ῥῆμα·

John 8:17
“because of the testimony of two men is true.”


καὶ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ δὲ τῷ ὑμετέρῳ γέγραπται ὅτι δύο ἀνθρώπων ἡ μαρτυρία ἀληθής ἐστιν.

2 Corinthians 13:1
at the mouth of two
and of three witnesses.”

Τρίτον τοῦτο ἔρχομαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς· ἐπὶ στόματος δύο μαρτύρων καὶ τριῶν σταθήσεται πᾶν ῥῆμα.

1 Timothy 5:19
“upon two or three witnesses.”


κατὰ πρεσβυτέρου κατηγορίαν μὴ παραδέχου, ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ ἐπὶ δύο ἢ τριῶν μαρτύρων·

Hebrews 10:28
“upon two or three witnesses.”


ἀθετήσας τις νόμον Μωυσέως χωρὶς οἰκτιρμῶν ἐπὶ δυσὶν ἢ τρισὶν μάρτυσιν ἀποθνήσκει·​


But a Latin translation of Deuteronomy 19:15 (Clause-B) "at the mouth of three witnesses" is quoted and is eisegetically connected with Matthew 28:19 and Revelation 10:9's "three" letters etc.

The Comma's F+L+HS grammar is different to Pseudo-Cyprian's "Sermo de centesima, sexagesima, tricesima,".

Matthew 28:19's F+S+HS grammar is identical with Pseudo-Cyprian's "Sermo de centesima, sexagesima, tricesima,".


Pseudo-Cyprian of Carthage

"Sermo de centesima, sexagesima, tricesima," Edited by Reitzenstein, dans ZNTW, 1914.

Pages 86-87, Lines 348-352 (Modified slightly by me).


"lex enim Domini dura est et amara, [Line 349] <sed> amaritudinem facit, ut dulcedinem ostendat. nam et per Iohannem [Line 350] demonstravit, cum Spiritus [Page 87] librum angelo sigilla solventi traderet dicens: ”Accipe [Line 351] librum et devora eum et amaritudinem faciet ventri tuo, sed in ore tuo erit [Line 352] dulce, tamquam mel.” (Rev 10:9) hoc est per os trium testium probari, id est per os [Line 353] Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti confiteri, quod mel tribus litteris constat scribi; [Line 354] nam et mel quidem legimus tribus litteris statui.

"For the Law of the Lord is hard and bitter, but it makes bitterness, in order that it might reveal sweetness. Another example of this is shown through John, when the spirit hands over the book to the angel who broke the seals, saying: ”Take the book and eat it up. And it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey.” [Revelation 10:9] That is, "at the mouth of three witnesses," [Deuteronomy 19:15] this is to be established, which is through the mouth "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" [Matthew 28:19 (genitive case Latin)] it is to be confessed, because it is apparent that honey is written in three letters. For certainly, we also read honey, constituted of three letters."​


No one-ness "these three are one", no "in heaven", no "there are three who", no "are giving witness", no "Logos", honestly - no Comma in view at all.

Your confirmation bias and obsession with the Comma, is leading you read the Comma into a text that's obviously referencing Deuteronomy 19:15 (see the context of "the Law of the Lord" [Line 348]) and Matthew's genitive case "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

You're very much mistaken.
 
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Also, Jean Daniélou in The Origins Of Latin Christianity 1977 has shown that the De Cent sciptures quotes "utlize a portfolio of Pauline texts which is, for the most part, that which we know, through Clement of Alexandria, to have been that of Tatian and Julius Cassian (major Encratites). It is possible that he used Tatian's Diatessaron in his Latin translation. It presents specific encratite traits. It testifies to the existence of Judeo-Christianity of Encratite tendency in Africa at the time of Tertullian. It presents characteristic features of Judeo-Christianity: freedom in the use of biblical quotations, allegorical exegeses of parables, angelomorphic Christology, against which we know that Tertullian reacted."

The Encratites are mentioned by Clement of Alexandria (The Pedagogue II.33; Stromata I.15; Stromata VII.17). The whole of the third book of the Stromata is devoted to combating a false encrateia, or continency.
 
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That's two Gnostic weirdo type texts that use the same two texts, loosely paraphrased, in close proximity. Deut. 17.15 "at the mouth of three witnesses" + Matt. 28.19 "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
 
Greetings! if I can have my say on the '' De Centesima '' there is no reference to the Comma but up to a certain point. But the thought goes there if we read: ... hoc est: per os trium testium probari, id est: per os Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, confiteri, quod mel tribus litteris constet scribi. Nam et fel quidem legimus tribus litteris statui; haec est amaritudo quod ventri angelus sentiebat ...

translation: .... This means: to be tried by the mouth of three witnesses, that is, by the mouth of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: to confess. Because honey (Latin: mel) is written in three letters, because gall (Latin: fel) which we also read established by three letters: this is the bitterness that the angel felt in his womb ...

My question is that we need to emphasize that some words have three letters to refer to the act that the Trinity consists of three persons then done twice the thought goes at least for the Latin to the three terrestrial and celestial witnesses also seen that it underlines the slight difference between mel and fel as indeed also in the two testimonies and the interpretation and the refer direct

another thing to avoid future transcription errors I also recommend to see the manuscript (f48v (96), line 12/14; f49v (98) / f50r (99), line 18/5; f51v (102), line 6 / 11):

 
My question is that we need to emphasize that some words have three letters to refer to the act that the Trinity consists of three persons then done twice the thought goes at least for the Latin to the three terrestrial and celestial witnesses also seen that it underlines the slight difference between mel and fel as indeed also in the two testimonies and the interpretation and the refer direct

Hi Puxanto.

I think your reading your own (well known) bias in favor of the Comma into this text (with the "done twice" and "it underlines the slight difference between mel and fel").

Well done though, for going to the manuscripts. That's one thing I appreciate and respect about your research.

But I simply disagree on this text (my main reasons have already been stated, so I'm not wasting anymore of my time on this particular text).

Enjoy your day.
 
Hi Puxanto.

I think your reading your own (well known) bias in favor of the Comma into this text (with the "done twice" and "it underlines the slight difference between mel and fel").

Well done though, for going to the manuscripts. That's one thing I appreciate and respect about your research.

But I simply disagree on this text (my main reasons have already been stated, so I'm not wasting anymore of my time on this particular text).

Enjoy your day.
Hi, TwoNoteableCorruptions

I think you are misunderstanding me I am not necessarily in favor of the Comma. This thought perhaps came to you for that speech made in another forum; I am just collecting all the elements of scholars who say because the Comma should be removed and of other scholars who instead affirm that the Comma should be put (to the point that I can make you a list of the logical-grammatical reasons as well as of manuscripts for both than for the other party). If you want to know my opinion about it, it is this: I would put it in square brackets with reserve (whoever wants to read it if he reads it who does not want to read it skips it!) At least until I see the Greek manuscripts of the third century if ever we'll find someone
 
I would put it in square brackets with reserve (whoever wants to read it if he reads it who does not want to read it skips it!
Unacceptable; for there is not at present, without Greek attestation, even prima facie evidence of its authenticity: Latin authority (such as it exists in a few very late manuscripts) not being relevant authority. Thus the comma's only place would be in a footnote, and in small type.
 
Hi, TwoNoteableCorruptions

I think you are misunderstanding me I am not necessarily in favor of the Comma. This thought perhaps came to you for that speech made in another forum; I am just collecting all the elements of scholars who say because the Comma should be removed and of other scholars who instead affirm that the Comma should be put (to the point that I can make you a list of the logical-grammatical reasons as well as of manuscripts for both than for the other party). If you want to know my opinion about it, it is this: I would put it in square brackets with reserve (whoever wants to read it if he reads it who does not want to read it skips it!) At least until I see the Greek manuscripts of the third century if ever we'll find someone

Hi Puxanto,

Yes, I was curious as to how TNC thought you were biased in favor of the heavenly witnesses authenticity. And I look forward to your working with the logical grammatical reasons and manuscripts. In addition to CARM, you have a posting home on the Pure Bible Forum, and you might also like to try a bit of Facebook on either Textus Receptus Academy or Pure Bible. You are right that we have no Greek manuscripts of the third century, and in fact there are few Greek manuscripts even till AD 500-700 and those few mss. we have are quite unreliable.

Blessings and grace,

Steven
 
Unacceptable; for there is not at present, without Greek attestation, even prima facie evidence of its authenticity: Latin authority (such as it exists in a few very late manuscripts) not being relevant authority.

Please list the early Latin manuscripts.

Let's get that straight before considering the massive Latin support in church writers.
 
Please list the early Latin manuscripts.
Priscillian & Speculum, as far as I know, are the only well attested early Latin manuscripts. Both codices likely originate in related, or the same, pseudo-Manichean/ascetic/fanatical sects of Latin Christians in Spain and/or Africa with extensive access to NT apocryphal writings.

Let's get that straight before considering the massive Latin support in church writers.
 
Priscillian & Speculum, as far as I know, are the only well attested early Latin manuscripts.

There are many more in the same era, late fourth and early fifth centuries.

However, since ALL the early manuscripts you are mentioning support the heavenly witnesses, how could you possibly say?

(such as it exists in a few very late manuscripts)
 
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Your attempt to go wild on Priscillian is a total failure, and typical of contras. He was Bible-centered, and some references can be contra-Priscillian as well as pro. Here are a few that you missed, without even doing much with the super-evidences of Cyprian and Jerome's Vulgate Prologue and the Council of Carthage, and the many quotes in De Trinitate. We can also add the Freisinger Fragment, since its Old Latin text represents a 2nd century line.

===============================

The Witness of God is Greater
is the primary source, although I do my value-added study.

===============================

[Exposition of our Universal Faith]
As the Evangelist testifies, that it is written, "there are three, that are witnessing in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."
Expositio Fidei Catholicae (CCSL 9:347, Lines 1-26)

This may be Isaac the Jew in the mid-4th century.

===============================

Symboli Apostolici et Athanasii Enarratio
- Codex Veronensis (circa AD 350-400)

Let us see now, whether the faithful Disciples, after they received, preserved. John replies to us on behalf of all, the one who, while reclining on friendly terms in the breast of our Lord, is able to understand the secrets of the whole doctrine; who alone asked the Lord what the other Apostles longed to know; who, after the Lord had been seized, entered the hall of the priest, as one who was not going to deny, who while receiving you [him?] of the mother as a beloved proxy for the Lord [John 19:26] was loved who hurrying on came to the tomb of the Lord before even Peter. ”There are three,” he says,”who bear witness in heaven, Father, Word and Spirit, and these three are one.”
Also known as Pseudo-Athanasian enarratio in symbolum apostolorum (CPL 1744a)
(Pseudo-Athanasius & Bianchini, 1744, p. 38-40. Translation by Rosalinda MacLahlahn via correspondence dated 18 September 2019)

===============================

Contra Varimadum
(possibly anti-priscillianist Idacius Clarus AD 350)

And John the evangelist says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1) Also to the Parthians: "there are three", he says, "that bear witness in earth, the water, the blood and the flesh (body): and these three are in us." "and there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit: and these three are one."
(Idacius Clarus, Contra Varimadum (Marvidamun), Book 1. Chapter 5; CCSL 90:20-21; [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]

This will often be listed as Vigilius Tapsensis (Thapsus) in the period around the Council of Carthage, currently accepted as earlier.

===============================
 
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There are many more in the same era, late fourth and early fifth centuries.

However, since ALL the early manuscripts you are mentioning support the heavenly witnesses, how could you possibly say?
Because I don't allow only partial allusions to the Comma (like you). As TNC has proved, there is another well documented roads to these partial allusions, from John 10:30, Matt 28:19 and Deut 19:15 and their misapplication to the "trinity."
 
Your attempt to go wild on Priscillian is a total failure, and typical of contras. He was Bible-centered, and some references can be contra-Priscillian as well as pro. Here are a few that you missed, without even doing much with the super-evidences of Cyprian and Jerome's Vulgate Prologue and the Council of Carthage, and the many quotes in De Trinitate. We can also add the Freisinger Fragment, since its Old Latin text represents a 2nd century line.

===============================

The Witness of God is Greater
is the primary source, although I do my value-added study.

===============================

[Exposition of our Universal Faith]
As the Evangelist testifies, that it is written, "there are three, that are witnessing in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."
Expositio Fidei Catholicae (CCSL 9:347, Lines 1-26)

This may be Isaac the Jew in the mid-4th century.

===============================

Symboli Apostolici et Athanasii Enarratio
- Codex Veronensis (circa AD 350-400)

Let us see now, whether the faithful Disciples, after they received, preserved. John replies to us on behalf of all, the one who, while reclining on friendly terms in the breast of our Lord, is able to understand the secrets of the whole doctrine; who alone asked the Lord what the other Apostles longed to know; who, after the Lord had been seized, entered the hall of the priest, as one who was not going to deny, who while receiving you [him?] of the mother as a beloved proxy for the Lord [John 19:26] was loved who hurrying on came to the tomb of the Lord before even Peter. ”There are three,” he says,”who bear witness in heaven, Father, Word and Spirit, and these three are one.”
Also known as Pseudo-Athanasian enarratio in symbolum apostolorum (CPL 1744a)
(Pseudo-Athanasius & Bianchini, 1744, p. 38-40. Translation by Rosalinda MacLahlahn via correspondence dated 18 September 2019)

===============================

Contra Varimadum
(possibly anti-priscillianist Idacius Clarus AD 350)

And John the evangelist says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1) Also to the Parthians: "there are three", he says, "that bear witness in earth, the water, the blood and the flesh (body): and these three are in us." "and there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit: and these three are one."
(Idacius Clarus, Contra Varimadum (Marvidamun), Book 1. Chapter 5; CCSL 90:20-21; [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]

This will often be listed as Vigilius Tapsensis (Thapsus) in the period around the Council of Carthage, currently accepted as earlier.

===============================
None of them precede Priscillian : prove it otherwise.
 
Avery:

"although I do my value-added study."

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

This isn't the first time you've almost dislocated your shoulder patting yourself on the back. Lol....

You're such a humble guy.
 
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