In Christ

[SovereignGrace]

That's one of the reasons I'm confident that my understanding is correct.
I learned very early on in my apologetics experience to read the entire chapter a "proof-text" occurs in (or the previous chapter leading up, if it's at the beginning of a chapter) in order to get the best understanding. This really fleshes out the meaning.

I get really annoyed when people quote "verses" as if the Bible was nothing more than a collection of single-serve, isolated "holy fortune cookies", to be quoted in isolation. Just like those people who think God speaks to them through opening up the Bible to a random page and then pointing to a random verse.

Exactly, well stated, and wonderful post. If you will watch the Romans 9 debate that Dr. James White had with Dr. Leighton Flowers, you will see who truly exegeted that chapter. Dr. White started with Romans 8:28, as Romans is one letter, where chapter and verses were added several centuries later, to exegete chapter 9, seeing those in chapter 8 are the same ones in Romans 9. If’n you haven’t watched it(it’s just under 3 hours long, so pack a lunch if you watch it), it’s a worthwhile video to watch. It’s on YouTube, FYI.

 

[armylngst]

Again do you have a verse which states or shows men are unconditionally chosen to be in Christ
Speculation as to why I am "stuck" on it does not provide one. Nor does rhetoric

However it should be no mystery here as unconditional election is the doctrine being challenged here

Of course, you just don't understand it. Ephesians 1:4. Chosen before the foundation of the world in Him. So their destination was predestined (Ephesians 1:5). The verses you use against this speak of an action now, in time, whereas Ephesians 1:4 does not, so they are not related in the way you present. God chose them before time began to be saved, outside of time in eternity, while here on Earth, all there was to wait for was for them to be saved. It was an undeniable fact that they would be saved, because God had chosen them before the foundation of the world. That is the connection you seem to have difficulty making. Add to that Ephesians 1:5, and they were predestined to be adopted as children...before they were adopted as children. Your handling of the other cherry picking verses in Ephesians undoes this. As such, that means there must be a different understanding of the first verses that you are missing.

 

[Theo1689]

Exactly, well stated, and wonderful post. If you will watch the Romans 9 debate that Dr. James White had with Dr. Leighton Flowers, you will see who truly exegeted that chapter. Dr. White started with Romans 8:28, as Romans is one letter, where chapter and verses were added several centuries later, to exegete chapter 9, seeing those in chapter 8 are the same ones in Romans 9. If’n you haven’t watched it(it’s just under 3 hours long, so pack a lunch if you watch it), it’s a worthwhile video to watch. It’s on YouTube, FYI.

Yes, I've watched most of Dr. White's debates, including that one, and the Long Island "Great Debate" ones from way back when against various Catholic apologists.

 

[TomFL]

Of course, you just don't understand it. Ephesians 1:4. Chosen before the foundation of the world in Him. So their destination was predestined (Ephesians 1:5). The verses you use against this speak of an action now, in time, whereas Ephesians 1:4 does not, so they are not related in the way you present. God chose them before time began to be saved, outside of time in eternity, while here on Earth, all there was to wait for was for them to be saved. It was an undeniable fact that they would be saved, because God had chosen them before the foundation of the world. That is the connection you seem to have difficulty making. Add to that Ephesians 1:5, and they were predestined to be adopted as children...before they were adopted as children. Your handling of the other cherry picking verses in Ephesians undoes this. As such, that means there must be a different understanding of the first verses that you are missing.

You miss the point

Men are not chosen to be in him

It is those in Christ chosen to be holy and blameless before God

those who are in Christ are predestined to adoption as son


these are not men unconditionally

chosen to be in Christ

 

[Sethproton]

Let me tell you something. Scripture truth isnt always going to be line by line black and white. Sometimes scripture truth is spiritually discerned to compare spiritual things with spiritual things 1 Cor 2 12 13

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thats why we need the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual truth.

Now if you want to hold everyone to the standard of " line by line " method, then hold yourself to it, because if you dont, you are being hypocritical, i will be watching how you post to see if you hold others and yourself to that standard, even though its not always conducive to spiritual learning. The bible isnt a natural mans book. Now I said what I said, if you dont accept it, fine !

I agree that when we read the Bible, if we do not have the Spirit to open our minds, our understanding is limited.
Certain truths are spiritually understood, though God uses our sense and logic to teach us truth. Often, once the Spirit has shown me truth in the Word, it is an easy matter to show it to someone else.
But when people start suggesting that verses have unspoken truths in them and that the Spirit shows them truth thru a scripture when nothing in the that scripture speaks about that truth, then what they teach is suspect and not likely the fruit of understanding thru the Spirit.

So definately, line by line is the way to learn and to teach. I don't teach anything as Biblical doctrine if I don't see it in the lines. This means if I make a point, I will base it on scripture, and if I cannot then, I will hold my own thoughts suspect

 

[brightfame52]

I agree that when we read the Bible, if we do not have the Spirit to open our minds, our understanding is limited.
Certain truths are spiritually understood, though God uses our sense and logic to teach us truth. Often, once the Spirit has shown me truth in the Word, it is an easy matter to show it to someone else.
But when people start suggesting that verses have unspoken truths in them and that the Spirit shows them truth thru a scripture when nothing in the that scripture speaks about that truth, then what they teach is suspect and not likely the fruit of understanding thru the Spirit.

So definately, line by line is the way to learn and to teach. I don't teach anything as Biblical doctrine if I don't see it in the lines. This means if I make a point, I will base it on scripture, and if I cannot then, I will hold my own thoughts suspect

Okay I will be observing you

 

[Sethproton]

Okay I will be observing you

Please do. And if I make a doctrinal statement that you deem unbiblical, please point it out and I'll show you the scriptures I get it from, or I will admit is my own thoughts.
But whatever you ask, I will respond to. I won't deflect questions.

 

[armylngst]

You miss the point

Men are not chosen to be in him

It is those in Christ chosen to be holy and blameless before God

those who are in Christ are predestined to adoption as son


these are not men unconditionally

chosen to be in Christ

Those in Christ were chosen to be in Him. Why are you turning the verse inside out, when it is quite clear straightforward. They were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world, that they might be holy and blameless before God. That who might be holy and blameless before God? Those (the us) who were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. It really is that simple, though it carries A LOT of spiritual truth that you seem to ignore, or not notice. They, who have been chosen before the foundation of the world, the great "us", are predestined to adoption as sons. PRE-destined. Before they are saved, they had been chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be adopted as sons, not just to be holy and blameless before God. It was unconditional. They provided NOTHING to God that He chose them. No conditions given. Basically the meaning of unconditional. We did not promise God anything, and we did not bring anything to the table, yet God chose us.

 

[Sethproton]

Those in Christ were chosen to be in Him. Why are you turning the verse inside out, when it is quite clear straightforward. They were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world, that they might be holy and blameless before God. That who might be holy and blameless before God? Those (the us) who were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. It really is that simple, though it carries A LOT of spiritual truth that you seem to ignore, or not notice. They, who have been chosen before the foundation of the world, the great "us", are predestined to adoption as sons. PRE-destined. Before they are saved, they had been chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be adopted as sons, not just to be holy and blameless before God. It was unconditional. They provided NOTHING to God that He chose them. No conditions given. Basically the meaning of unconditional. We did not promise God anything, and we did not bring anything to the table, yet God chose

You are adding to the verse when you you say chosen TO BE in Him. Doesn't that tell you that you are adding words to change what it says? We should not add words to scriptrure

 

[armylngst]

You are adding to the verse when you say chosen TO BE in Him. Doesn't that tell you that you are adding words to change what it says? We should not add words to scripture.

I'm not sure if you said that, but it is either that or you said nothing at all.

Consider two different version of what I said: Those in Christ were chosen to be in Him. Second rendition: Those in Christ were chose in Him. They practically sound the same, except it underlines the fact that there is a time in a Christian's life that they are not saved. So in God's view, they are in Christ, as chosen before the foundation of the world, but in our view, we aren't even saved yet.

The turning the verse inside out is that TOMFL removes the whole, chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and claims that the we and the us is just the church, and is not the individuals. Somehow He believes that someone who becomes a believer, becomes one of the us Paul is addressing...a saved believer, they are not covered by the statement "God chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world". Not exactly sure how that works, because the us is the body of believers...corporate. Anyone who has ever, who is, or who ever will be a member of the body of Christ, is who the beginning of the verse is talking about...chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world. When I said chosen to be in Him, I am looking at the earthly, in time understanding that one is not born a believer, saved by grace, but will, at God's appointed time, become a believer because they were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world.

 

[Sethproton]

I'm not sure if you said that, but it is either that or you said nothing at all.

Consider two different version of what I said: Those in Christ were chosen to be in Him. Second rendition: Those in Christ were chose in Him. They practically sound the same, except it underlines the fact that there is a time in a Christian's life that they are not saved. So in God's view, they are in Christ, as chosen before the foundation of the world, but in our view, we aren't even saved yet.

The turning the verse inside out is that TOMFL removes the whole, chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and claims that the we and the us is just the church, and is not the individuals. Somehow He believes that someone who becomes a believer, becomes one of the us Paul is addressing...a saved believer, they are not covered by the statement "God chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world". Not exactly sure how that works, because the us is the body of believers...corporate. Anyone who has ever, who is, or who ever will be a member of the body of Christ, is who the beginning of the verse is talking about...chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world. When I said chosen to be in Him, I am looking at the earthly, in time understanding that one is not born a believer, saved by grace, but will, at God's appointed time, become a believer because they were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world.

Still. you are rewording the verse to fit your doctrine.
But it sounds like you are saying what I believe that we are not in Him till after we are born.

 

[TomFL]

Those in Christ were chosen to be in Him. Why are you turning the verse inside out, when it is quite clear straightforward. They were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world, that they might be holy and blameless before God. That who might be holy and blameless before God? Those (the us) who were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. It really is that simple, though it carries A LOT of spiritual truth that you seem to ignore, or not notice. They, who have been chosen before the foundation of the world, the great "us", are predestined to adoption as sons. PRE-destined. Before they are saved, they had been chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be adopted as sons, not just to be holy and blameless before God. It was unconditional. They provided NOTHING to God that He chose them. No conditions given. Basically the meaning of unconditional. We did not promise God anything, and we did not bring anything to the table, yet God chose us.

No it doers not say they were chosen to be in him

It does say they, the faithful in Christ are chosen to be holy and blameless before God and predestined to adoption as sons

If anyone is turning the verse inside out it is you

 

[armylngst]

Still. you are rewording the verse to fit your doctrine.
But it sounds like you are saying what I believe that we are not in Him till after we are born.

You also seem to fail to understand. That verse talks about before the foundation of the world. This is God's land, His point of view. So to Him, at that point, since the foundation of the world, God chose us in Him. On our land, our domain, this earthly existence, what God has already done is not visible until one is saved. The reason one is saved is because God, before the foundation of the world, chose. The us being spoken of is corporate, so it doesn't matter who was a part of it when Paul wrote, it includes all who will corporately be members of the body of Christ. This choice of God was made without condition, which is...unconditional. We did not have to do anything, or provide anything to bribe God to choose us. There are no conditions in His choice. Remember, God is not us, He is eternal, and He, as such, has a completely different view of everything. It is completely different then our temporal view.

 

[Sethproton]

You also seem to fail to understand. That verse talks about before the foundation of the world. This is God's land, His point of view. So to Him, at that point, since the foundation of the world, God chose us in Him. On our land, our domain, this earthly existence, what God has already done is not visible until one is saved. The reason one is saved is because God, before the foundation of the world, chose. The us being spoken of is corporate, so it doesn't matter who was a part of it when Paul wrote, it includes all who will corporately be members of the body of Christ. This choice of God was made without condition, which is...unconditional. We did not have to do anything, or provide anything to bribe God to choose us. There are no conditions in His choice. Remember, God is not us, He is eternal, and He, as such, has a completely different view of everything. It is completely different then our temporal view.

Not sure how all that justifies you rewording the verse.
Also have to say you have derived quite a lot of doctrine from your reworded version.

 

[TomFL]

You also seem to fail to understand. That verse talks about before the foundation of the world. This is God's land, His point of view. So to Him, at that point, since the foundation of the world, God chose us in Him. On our land, our domain, this earthly existence, what God has already done is not visible until one is saved. The reason one is saved is because God, before the foundation of the world, chose. The us being spoken of is corporate, so it doesn't matter who was a part of it when Paul wrote, it includes all who will corporately be members of the body of Christ. This choice of God was made without condition, which is...unconditional. We did not have to do anything, or provide anything to bribe God to choose us. There are no conditions in His choice. Remember, God is not us, He is eternal, and He, as such, has a completely different view of everything. It is completely different then our temporal view.

No I am saying we are in Christ when we believe

You show no content from the message you are replying to so I really cannot tell what you are addressing

but

Men are not chosen to be in him

It is those in Christ who are chosen to be holy and blameless before God

those who are in Christ who are predestined to adoption as son

these are not men unconditionally

chosen to be in Christ

and nothing in the passage states that

 

[armylngst]

No it doers not say they were chosen to be in him

It does say they, the faithful in Christ are chosen to be holy and blameless before God and predestined to adoption as sons

If anyone is turning the verse inside out it is you

Look at the whole passage, this time in the literal translation:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!
3 Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,

Periods are apparently lacking in the literal translation...

So who is the us. Paul, the saints who are in Ephesus (so those believers in Ephesus), and to the faithful in Christ Jesus (any believer who may read this), which may mean Paul knew we would be sitting around reading this letter... That's cool.

So...the whole church is covered, all believers through the ages, by Paul's introduction. So the us is Paul, the saints who are in Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus. That pretty much makes it the whole church, anyone who is a believer. Not sure why you keep missing this, but...whatever. And it clearly states "according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world". Now, I understand that you believe God chooses, but those people can somehow easily defy His will, undermining His very essence as God, and God still be God, but that's for you to deal with. I'm not sure why you don't understand that this foreordination, also noted as predestination, to the adoptions of sons is a future tense way of talking about a future salvation based off of the choice mentioned in Ephesians 1:4. It even gives a condition, according to the good pleasure of His will. What kind of condition is that? That has to be unconditional because that would mean He would choose differently if He had indigestion. (I know He can't, it's just an example to show that that isn't a condition.)

 

[armylngst]

Not sure how all that justifies you rewording the verse.
Also have to say you have derived quite a lot of doctrine from your reworded version.

I didn't. I put the verse right after it, and strangely...the rewording is not there. Straining at the gnat while swallowing the camel.

 

[armylngst]

No I am saying we are in Christ when we believe

You show no content from the message you are replying to so I really cannot tell what you are addressing

but

Men are not chosen to be in him

It is those in Christ who are chosen to be holy and blameless before God

those who are in Christ who are predestined to adoption as son

these are not men unconditionally

chosen to be in Christ

and nothing in the passage states that

I believe this may have been a continuation, if the quote isn't there. I don't remember. (It's kind of the middle of the night.)

It is those in Christ who are chosen to be holy and blameless before God. The verse does not say that. It says we are chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless. Get it right.

This group of people which is Paul, the Saints at Ephesus, and those who are faithful in Christ Jesus; given Saints at Ephesus, Paul must be speaking of believers not in Ephesus, who are reading this letter. That's everyone. The body of Christ. Not sure how you missed that. These are men chosen unconditionally, and the passage does indeed state that. It states that He chose "according to the good pleasure of His will". So...He chose at His pleasure. That's unconditional. That's pulling names out of a hat. That's choosing based on feeling. That's....unconditional. No merit on anyone's behalf, it is according to the good pleasure of His will. Now...how did you miss that?

 

[TomFL]

I believe this may have been a continuation, if the quote isn't there. I don't remember. (It's kind of the middle of the night.)

It is those in Christ who are chosen to be holy and blameless before God. The verse does not say that. It says we are chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless. Get it right.

This group of people which is Paul, the Saints at Ephesus, and those who are faithful in Christ Jesus; given Saints at Ephesus, Paul must be speaking of believers not in Ephesus, who are reading this letter. That's everyone. The body of Christ. Not sure how you missed that. These are men chosen unconditionally, and the passage does indeed state that. It states that He chose "according to the good pleasure of His will". So...He chose at His pleasure. That's unconditional. That's pulling names out of a hat. That's choosing based on feeling. That's....unconditional. No merit on anyone's behalf, it is according to the good pleasure of His will. Now...how did you miss that?

Sorry but Not according to this text

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

or these

Eph. 1:1 —NET
“¶ From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints [in Ephesus], the faithful in Christ Jesus.”

Eph. 1:1 —CSB17
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will: ¶ To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.”

Eph. 1:1 —NASB
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus, and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Eph. 1:1 —NIV11-GK
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Eph. 1:1 —NKJV
“¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Don't know how you missed these

and the we are those seen above the faithful in Christ

You missed it

 

[Sethproton]

I didn't. I put the verse right after it, and strangely...the rewording is not there. Straining at the gnat while swallowing the camel.

Maybe I have misread you. I don't do well when posts get too long. Anyway, may God bless you in your study and life