Some believe that God predestines all things. If that is so who killed Abel?

[Reformedguy]

You provide no evidence that they understood sacrifice and offering would be abolished by the sacrifice of Christ.

They weren't abolished. They were fulfilled. Christ did not come to abolish the law.

 

[fltom]

They weren't abolished. They were fulfilled. Christ did not come to abolish the law.

Ephesians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Heb 8:13

(Mace) now by stiling the second a new alliance, he has antiquated the first. but to be antiquated and obsolete is next to being abolished.

 

[Reformedguy]

Ephesians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Heb 8:13

(Mace) now by stiling the second a new alliance, he has antiquated the first. but to be antiquated and obsolete is next to being abolished.

He said Himself He came to fulfill the law not to abolish it. Matthew 5:17. Quote it for us.

 

[fltom]

He said Himself He came to fulfill the law not to abolish it. Matthew 5:17. Quote it for us.

And

Ephesians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Heb 8:13

(Mace) now by stiling the second a new alliance, he has antiquated the first. but to be antiquated and obsolete is next to being abolished.

You can't deny a couple of passages because of what one might say

both are true

 

[Reformedguy]

And

Ephesians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Heb 8:13

(Mace) now by stiling the second a new alliance, he has antiquated the first. but to be antiquated and obsolete is next to being abolished.

You can't deny a couple of passages because of what one might say

both are tru

Matthew 5 :17 what it might say?? LOL

 

[fltom]

Matthew 5 :17 what it might say?? LOL

Were you unable to read

And

Ephesians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Heb 8:13

(Mace) now by stiling the second a new alliance, he has antiquated the first. but to be antiquated and obsolete is next to being abolished.

You can't deny a couple of passages because of what one might say

both are true

 

[Reformedguy]

Were you unable to read

And

Ephesians 2:15 (ESV) — 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Heb 8:13

(Mace) now by stiling the second a new alliance, he has antiquated the first. but to be antiquated and obsolete is next to being abolished.

You can't deny a couple of passages because of what one might say

both are true

Might say? LOL Matthew 5:17 quote it for us. Let's see what "it might say". ?

 

[Howie]

Bible Search for atonement

English Standard Version 90 results in 78 verses

Exod 29:33
They shall eat those things with which atonement was made at their ordination and consecration, but an outsider shall not eat of them, because they are holy.

Exod 29:36
and every day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement. Also you shall purify the altar, when you make atonement for it, and shall anoint it to consecrate it.

Exod 29:37
Seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and consecrate it, and the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar shall become holy.

Exod 30:10
Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year. With the blood of the sin offering of atonement he shall make atonement for it once in the year throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD.”

Exod 30:15
The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less, than the half shekel, when you give the LORD’s offering to make atonement for your lives.

Exod 30:16
You shall take the atonement money from the people of Israel and shall give it for the service of the tent of meeting, that it may bring the people of Israel to remembrance before the LORD, so as to make atonement for your lives.”

Exod 32:30
The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

Lev 1:4
He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Lev 4:20
Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

Lev 4:26
And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. So the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 4:31
And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 4:35
And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD’s food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 5:6
he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.

Lev 5:10
Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the rule. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 5:13
Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the grain offering.”

Lev 5:16
He shall also make restitution for what he has done amiss in the holy thing and shall add a fifth to it and give it to the priest. And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 5:18
He shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish out of the flock, or its equivalent, for a guilt offering, and the priest shall make atonement for him for the mistake that he made unintentionally, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 6:7
And the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things that one may do and thereby become guilty.”

Lev 6:30
But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

Lev 7:7
The guilt offering is just like the sin offering; there is one law for them. The priest who makes atonement with it shall have it.

Lev 8:15
And he killed it, and Moses took the blood, and with his finger put it on the horns of the altar around it and purified the altar and poured out the blood at the base of the altar and consecrated it to make atonement for it.

Lev 8:34
As has been done today, the LORD has commanded to be done to make atonement for you.

Lev 9:7
Then Moses said to Aaron, “Draw near to the altar and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and for the people, and bring the offering of the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded.”

Lev 10:17
“Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?

Lev 12:7
and he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her. Then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female.

Lev 12:8
And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”

Lev 14:18
And the rest of the oil that is in the priest’s hand he shall put on the head of him who is to be cleansed. Then the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD.

Lev 14:19
The priest shall offer the sin offering, to make atonement for him who is to be cleansed from his uncleanness. And afterward he shall kill the burnt offering.

Lev 14:20
And the priest shall offer the burnt offering and the grain offering on the altar. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be clean.

Lev 14:21
“But if he is poor and cannot afford so much, then he shall take one male lamb for a guilt offering to be waved, to make atonement for him, and a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, and a log of oil;

Lev 14:29
And the rest of the oil that is in the priest’s hand he shall put on the head of him who is to be cleansed, to make atonement for him before the LORD.

Lev 14:31
one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering, along with a grain offering. And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for him who is being cleansed.

Lev 14:53
And he shall let the live bird go out of the city into the open country. So he shall make atonement for the house, and it shall be clean.”

Lev 15:15
And the priest shall use them, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD for his discharge.

Lev 15:30
And the priest shall use one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her before the LORD for her unclean discharge.

Heb 10:4 ... For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins ...

There is only one atonement by which men are saved, Tom -- the atonement of Jesus Christ.

 

[fltom]

Heb 10:4 ... For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins ...

There is only one atonement by which men are saved, Tom -- the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Who stated salvation was in view.

You just assumed that.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

And Adam's fall? It was not an inevitable prearranged domino effect?

While Adam made his own choice, God already knew that Lucifer would sin and then deceive Adam and Eve who made their choice. But that is why it was also already known that Christ would become a man and saved His people from their sins.

 

[Sketo]

Some carry predestination to an absurd length. They believe that God predestines all things which would include all evils and lies.

There is nothing “absurd” about God being the Ultimate cause of “all things” including all evils and lies that occur in the timeline of creation.

If God would have determined to not create any “thing” then “evil and lies” would have never existed.

It is by God’s single determined action of creation that all things exist “including all evils and lies”.

Add to this the fact that God 100% knew that “evil and lies” would be the result of this action.

Further add to this fact that God’s involvement did not stop after the moment he created but required his continued upholding of the existence of all things as they occurred at every moment.

Of course that is not the God of the Bible.

Then you are reading a different “Bible”.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

An example of the absurdities that this logically leads to is the murder of Abel.

It is absurd to point to any “thing” occurring in the timeline of God’s creation, such as the “murder of able”, and assume this “evil” could have occurred without God determining to create any thing.

If God predestined Cain to kill Abel, then it was really God that did it.

Not necessarily. Kain on the Storyline level of creation is not identified as God on the Transcendent level. Kain being the Storyline level cause of Able’s death does not equate to God on the storyline level killing Able.

Just because God planned, purposed, determined that Jesus would be nailed to the cross by the hands of lawless men does not equate to God being the lawless men on the storyline level driving the nails into Jesus.

Cain was no more than just a weapon in God's hand.

That’s like saying the Orks, in the Lord Of The Rings, are just weapons in J.R.R Tolkiens hands.

Although true on a Transcendent level as Tolkien, not only created but, Authored the Orks evil actions to play a part in his story… but this does not equate to Tolkien being identified himself as an Ork in the story “just swinging a sword”.

In the same way God can plan, purpose and determine that lawless men drive nails into Jesus but this does not equate to the absurd assumption that God is identified as the lawless man driving the nails into Jesus himself.

…

 

[Kampioen]

There is nothing “absurd” about God being the Ultimate cause of “all things” including all evils and lies that occur in the timeline of creation.

If God would have determined to not create any “thing” then “evil and lies” would have never existed.

It is by God’s single determined action of creation that all things exist “including all evils and lies”.

Add to this the fact that God 100% knew that “evil and lies” would be the result of this action.

Further add to this fact that God’s involvement did not stop after the moment he created but required his continued upholding of the existence of all things as they occurred at every moment.

Then you are reading a different “Bible”.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

It is absurd to point to any “thing” occurring in the timeline of God’s creation, such as the “murder of able”, and assume this “evil” could have occurred without God determining to create any thing.

Not necessarily. Kain on the Storyline level of creation is not identified as God on the Transcendent level. Kain being the Storyline level cause of Able’s death does not equate to God on the storyline level killing Able.

Just because God planned, purposed, determined that Jesus would be nailed to the cross by the hands of lawless men does not equate to God being the lawless men on the storyline level driving the nails into Jesus.

That’s like saying the Orks, in the Lord Of The Rings, are just weapons in J.R.R Tolkiens hands.

Although true on a Transcendent level as Tolkien, not only created but, Authored the Orks evil actions to play a part in his story… but this does not equate to Tolkien being identified himself as an Ork in the story “just swinging a sword”.

In the same way God can plan, purpose and determine that lawless men drive nails into Jesus but this does not equate to the absurd assumption that God is identified as the lawless man driving the nails into Jesus himself.

So then the storyline characters would be libertarian freewill if God scripted a story of about libertarian free will?

 

[fltom]

There is nothing “absurd” about God being the Ultimate cause of “all things” including all evils and lies that occur in the timeline of creation.

Actually there is

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Your theology makes God evil - the author and instigator of all evil and destroys his holiness

1 John 1:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

 

[Sketo]

Actually there is

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Your theology makes God evil - the author and instigator of all evil and destroys his holiness

1 John 1:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

You failed to address the fact that NONE of this could have occurred apart from God’s Ultimate act of creating “all things”… making God the ?Ultimate? Cause.

You also failed to address

Add to this the fact that God 100% knew that “evil and lies” would be the result of his Ultimate action.

Further add to this fact that God’s involvement did not stop after the moment he created but required his continued upholding of the existence of all things as they occurred at every moment.


https://forums.carm.org/threads/som...that-is-so-who-killed-abel.16321/post-1307067

…

 

[fltom]

You failed to address the fact that NONE of this could have occurred apart from God’s Ultimate act of creating “all things”… making God the ?Ultimate? Cause.

You also failed to address

Add to this the fact that God 100% knew that “evil and lies” would be the result of his Ultimate action.

Further add to this fact that God’s involvement did not stop after the moment he created but required his continued upholding of the existence of all things as they occurred at every moment.


https://forums.carm.org/threads/som...that-is-so-who-killed-abel.16321/post-1307067

…

That does not make God the cause of your sin and you failed to address any verse

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Your theology makes God evil - the author and instigator of all evil and destroys his holiness

1 John 1:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

 

[Sketo]

That does not make God the cause of your sin and you failed to address any verse

No sin would have occurred if God had not created "all things" therefore making God's act of creating the Ultimate cause of all things that result from that action...

... now add to that fact that God foreknew the results of his own action before he acted making him Ultimatly responsible for ALL that results.

No one can excape this fact.

Your theology makes God evil - the author and instigator of all evil and destroys his holiness

Nope. Your placing God under the laws of creation makes God evil.

...

 

[fltom]

No sin would have occurred if God had not created "all things" therefore making God's act of creating the Ultimate cause of all things that result from that action...

... now add to that fact that God foreknew the results of his own action before he acted making him Ultimatly responsible for ALL that results.

No one can excape this fact.



Nope. Your placing God under the laws of creation makes God evil.

...

That does not make God the cause of your sin

You are basically saying God's act of creation necessitated your sin

 

[Sketo]

[Creation] does not make God the cause of your sin

Would sin have occurred apart from God creating?

If your answer is "No" then you affirm that God is the Ultimate cause of "all things" that result from that action...

Add to that the fact that God knew the result of his action before he acted...

Add to that the fact that God must uphold "all things" at all moments after he created for all known results to occur.

You are basically saying God's act of creation necessitated your sin

Nope... but God's act of creation guaranteed the known results of that action.

...

 

[armylngst]

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You need to explain how Gen 3:15 applies to God decreeing/ordaining all things that come to pass; sounds like a genetic fallacy.
The context is Satan being crushed by Jesus Christ.

We can't have God foreordaining Satan's defeat now can we?

 

[armylngst]

No sin would have occurred if God had not created "all things" therefore making God's act of creating the Ultimate cause of all things that result from that action...

... now add to that fact that God foreknew the results of his own action before he acted making him Ultimatly responsible for ALL that results.

No one can excape this fact.



Nope. Your placing God under the laws of creation makes God evil.

...

You are. Only by putting God under the laws of creation can you say that God killed Abel in ANY CONTEXT. If you were to remove God from under the laws of creation, the God can USE sin all He wants. He doesn't author it, He doesn't make anyone do it, they do it themselves. Why? Because God is not under the laws of creation, so please... STOP PUTTING HIM THERE. Calvin spent a book or two answering the same types of questions being asked here, and those asking the questions were plainly shown to be heretics, because they didn't believe in God or Jesus as the Bible teaches. In fact, that spoke of God committing all kinds of evil, just to try to win their argument. Who holds God ransom over an argument? I mean, really?