1Thess521
Well-known member
here's the premise: the word pray as used in the NT is in only reference to the Divine
What false dichotomy does the present?
Can You Pray to Whoever You Want to?
- Thread starter Tertiumquid
- Start date
What false dichotomy does the present?
LifeIn
Well-known member
That doesn't present a false dichotomy. It just doesn't prove that prayer to others is forbidden.
1Thess521
Well-known member
“Teach us to pray”
“pray like this”
“pray without ceasing”
“we constantly pray for you”
Does the meaning of the word “pray” matter?
Atemi
Well-known member
Inquiring of the dead is forbidden in Scripture.
Catholics don't care. They need to find those car keys and sell that house! LOL.
LifeIn
Well-known member
Spiritualism, séances and the like, are forbidden in Catholic teaching as well. Praying to the dead is not inquiring of them. Praying is attempting to make two-way communication as in Spiritualism. Praying to the dead is not spiritualism.
Here we see yet another logical fallacy - that of false equivalence. Perhaps the most famous example of false equivalence is in the song sung by Harold Hill in the musical, "The Music Man" that include "You got trouble, folks. Right here in River City, trouble with a capital "T" And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool" In the song Hill tries to convince the townsfolk that the new pool hall will lead to young boys gambling on horses, neglecting their chores, smoking, lying about smoking, involvement with women of ill repute, etc. Essentially making all these thing equivalent to playing pool. In the example above we see praying to Mary for help at our hour of death as somehow equivalent to a séance with a medium and a crystal ball or using a ouija board.
A new day
Super Member
God wants us to look to HIM for everything.... not run to mommy dearest or some dead saint buried in a coffin somewhere. In every analogy you use, its always about how your institution should be excused, and God should look the other way.
NO! It doesn't work like that. God says... "He will NOT share His glory with another". Rc's refuse to accept the fact that "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." Applies to EVERYTHING. You or anyone else do NOT get to make exceptions.
The point is, God all throughout Scripture tells us to not communicate in any way with the dead. mary is no longer here on earth, and praying to her for help, is indeed doing exactly what God said NOT to do. Doesn't matter if your not going through a medium. The intention and act is the same.
Stella1000
Well-known member
In my view nonCC's refuse to accept the fact that their own personal interpretation of Scripture is not infallible. The early Church developing doctrine and liturgy within a college of holy men and theologians, determine otherwise.
Prayers to the saints occur in almost all the ancient liturgies. Thus in the Liturgy of St. Basil: "By the command of Thine only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of Thy saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of Thy holy name which is invoked upon us". Cf. the Liturgy of Jerusalem, the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom, the Liturgy of Nestorius, the Coptic Liturgy of St. Cyril, etc. That these commemorations are not later additions is manifest from the words of St. Cyril of Jerusalem: "We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God by their prayers and intercessions may receive our petitions" ("Cat. Myst.", v, in P.G., XXXIII, 1113). (See Renaudot, "Liturgiarum Orientalium Collectio", Paris, 1716.)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Intercession
To go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other
www.newadvent.org
A new day
Super Member
In my view nonCC's refuse to accept the fact that their own personal interpretation of Scripture is not infallible. The early Church developing doctrine and liturgy within a college of holy men and theologians, determine otherwise.
Prayers to the saints occur in almost all the ancient liturgies. Thus in the Liturgy of St. Basil: "By the command of Thine only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of Thy saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of Thy holy name which is invoked upon us". Cf. the Liturgy of Jerusalem, the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom, the Liturgy of Nestorius, the Coptic Liturgy of St. Cyril, etc. That these commemorations are not later additions is manifest from the words of St. Cyril of Jerusalem: "We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God by their prayers and intercessions may receive our petitions" ("Cat. Myst.", v, in P.G., XXXIII, 1113). (See Renaudot, "Liturgiarum Orientalium Collectio", Paris, 1716.)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Intercession
To go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other
None of the apostles ever prayed to any one who died. They knew better. And I really don't care what some author eons ago had to say. What God says, supersedes everything else.
Stella1000
Well-known member
The Apostles were the very first Christians. They became the saints in heaven that Christians implored for intercession by virtue of their closeness to Christ in paradise.
A new day
Super Member
The apostles were Jewish, who believed IN and followed Jesus. They NEVER taught anyone to pray to the dead, nor did they teach anyone to pray to them. Any time anyone tried any of that crock, the apostles told them to NOT do it. Worship God only!.
None of us claim the false gift of infallible, the only ones who do that are your pope and his cronies. Another false claim by a RC that is bearing false witnessThey have proved it a false claim by their myths doctrines and teachingsIn my view nonCC's refuse to accept the fact that their own personal interpretation of Scripture is not infallible. The early Church developing doctrine and liturgy within a college of holy men and theologians, determine otherwise.
Prayers to the saints occur in almost all the ancient liturgies. Thus in the Liturgy of St. Basil: "By the command of Thine only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of Thy saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of Thy holy name which is invoked upon us". Cf. the Liturgy of Jerusalem, the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom, the Liturgy of Nestorius, the Coptic Liturgy of St. Cyril, etc. That these commemorations are not later additions is manifest from the words of St. Cyril of Jerusalem: "We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God by their prayers and intercessions may receive our petitions" ("Cat. Myst.", v, in P.G., XXXIII, 1113). (See Renaudot, "Liturgiarum Orientalium Collectio", Paris, 1716.)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Intercession
To go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other
Atemi
Well-known member
Sorry, but inquiring of the dead...period...is forbidden.
By definition, it is. Literally.
In case you do not know what inquire means....it means to ask.
דָּרַשׁ dârash, daw-rash'; a primitive root; properly, to tread or frequent; usually to follow (for pursuit or search); by implication, to seek or ask
Ya know...to ask....the very thing Catholics say the word PRAY means.
Can you do the math?
Isaiah 8:19 "should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?"
Atemi
Well-known member
Funny how Christ, their Master and unmatched Teacher, never taught them or anyone else to pray to the dead.
The record of the NT Scriptures span almost the entirety of the 1st century....with many Christians dying. Yet not a word that we should pray to them.
Yet you think you are smarter than these men?
Bonnie
Super Member
Excuse me, but WE have closeness to our dear Savior, via the indwelling Holy Spirit. Have you forgotten? And Paul says it is the HS Who intervenes for us, when we do not know how we ought to pray! NOT dead saints!
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Yes, I clearly stated that Protestants believe Catholics engage in idolatry when they honor the saints.
I am not the one who is blind here, Bonnie.
Now another thing I do not understand: why can't Protestants tell hyperbole and poetic exaggeration when they see it?Oohhhh, so those Marian prayers we have posted, like to Our Lady of Perpetual Help, pleading with Mary to help and save them, are just "honoring" her??
Stella1000
Well-known member
Revelation was written at the end of that time period where John records his vision of the 24 elders offering the prayers of the saints to the Lamb in heaven. Rev 5:8.
LifeIn
Well-known member
I know. Praying to the dead is not forbidden. It is not inquiring of the dead. That's a false equivalence.
You pick and choose the meaning that is most helpful to your view, rather than the meaning that is most in keeping with Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture is a specific literal injunction against praying to the dead for blessings. Nowhere.
Why didn't you quote ALL of Isaiah 8:19? Could it be that it clarifies the meaning in a way that is inconvenient to you? Isaiah 8:19 in full says, “And when they say to you, ‘Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,’ should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?” This is an example of the Bible’s prohibition on necromancy, or communicating with the dead in order to obtain information or knowledge (Deut. 18:11). The Catechism condemns necromancy (CCC 2116). But those who pray to saints ask them to pray for us; they do not use such prayers in order to gather information from the saints.
Bonnie
Super Member
Catholics dishonor the saints when they pray to them as they would to God, for help, comfort, and even salvation! And especially, when they pray to them to appease our dear Savior's wrath! He does not need appeasing!
Non-RCCers truly honor the saints, by teaching the truth about them, and by teaching and believing what they taught and believed, in the first century.
Oh, yes you are, along with you fellow RCCers. The fact that Catholics cannot see the idolatry in praying to saints, especially Mary, for help, comfort, and even salvation shows how blind
spiritually they truly are.
Oh, is that what worshiping saints dead in the Lord is called now...hyperbole and poetic exaggeration...
So, calling Mary the "ONLY hope for sinners" and "CAUSE of our salvation" and "gate of Heaven" is just hyperbole and poetic exaggeration, eh? I call it lying and blasphemy!
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A new day
Super Member
Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.
There is no interceding for believers in the above passage, that would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
The Holy Spirit does NOT contradict Himself. Your quoting this one lone verse does NOT justify in any way the rc practice of praying to mary and dead people.
Verse 8 says they fell down before Jesus, and worshipped Him. Verse 9,
And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign[ on the earth.”
There was no praying to Jesus at all in chapter 5 of the book of revelation.
Stella1000
Well-known member
What it comes down to is that being your interpretation of Revelation but as I've shown before, the early Fathers, those involved in translating and collating the canon of the NT, believed otherwise.